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degoins
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: DarylS]
      #383583 - 23/03/24 08:25 AM

"I've never shot a sawn off shotgun with a pistol grip. So don't know how much a top lever might be a problem?"

I have shot them with top and side levers in 12 guage and the levers do have a fairly nasty bite.

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: degoins]
      #383610 - 25/03/24 01:25 AM

Quote:

"I've never shot a sawn off shotgun with a pistol grip. So don't know how much a top lever might be a problem?"

I have shot them with top and side levers in 12 guage and the levers do have a fairly nasty bite.



As it turns out I have shot a fair amount of sawed off SXS's and never had a bite from a top lever. I guess it depends on the grip. I have more issues with the trigger guard till I added a spacer.

I did once have a issue with the safety on a Mossberg pump gun with a short grip

--------------------
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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #383611 - 25/03/24 01:33 AM

What about 45-70 as a howdah cartridge? Id love something more traditional; but 45-70 has the virtue of being available. It also seems to have the necessary power for anything Id likely (or fantasy) ever be using it.

I may have found an donor action. It has back action locks and a side lever.

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DarylS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #383612 - 25/03/24 03:25 AM

That would certainly be more powerful than a .45 Colt, would likely match or even outclass the .454Casul, as well as producing much less pressure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: DarylS]
      #383614 - 25/03/24 03:54 AM

I liked the idea of using the original 405gr "Cowboy" load. Perhaps even a BP or BP substitute load.

Im suggesting 45-70 because I know I can get 45-70 barrel inserts Also because the action is an antique and has dimacuss twist barrels.

Ultimately Id love 577 Snyder; but Im not sure how to go about that route with ammo or barrels.

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TH44
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: DarylS]
      #383615 - 25/03/24 04:03 AM

These may be of interest



4 cartridge pistols
The only real Howdah is 3rd down, a .577 Snider by Wilkinson
The bottom is a .500



The bottom one here is what you get by "bodging" a shotgun
it is a 16 bore pinfire, I knew what it was and it was very cheap!!
I have seen one for sale in the UK somee years ago that the deealer swore was real!

the other is a Belgian rifled 16 bore pinfire, long heavy barrel, AFAIK not modified
Also cheap so I had to have it

My opinions on real Howdah pistols is known to some of you but whatever they are they are definitely interesting an historical part of the gunmaker's art

Please post pics of anything you make up or modify and good luck trying

TH

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: TH44]
      #383616 - 25/03/24 04:09 AM

Thanks for the pics. Yes they give an interesting perspective

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #383617 - 25/03/24 05:15 AM

Lets talk barrel length. Ive seen short and long barrels on Howadhs. Six inches seems too short and 12" looks too long to balance. Im thinking maybe 8 inches???

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #383626 - 25/03/24 07:24 AM

Quote:

What about 45-70 as a howdah cartridge? Id love something more traditional; but 45-70 has the virtue of being available. It also seems to have the necessary power for anything Id likely (or fantasy) ever be using it.

I may have found an donor action. It has back action locks and a side lever.



I thought about whether a Aikal side by side DR in 45/70 could be (early) cut into a hissy pistol. I have one, a full rifle of course. If the barrels were cut in front of the forend, curved pistol grip stock made it might work. The barrels would need to be separated and regulated. But I think it would be quite heavy. The barrels and action are quite hefty.

The .577 Snider shot a 480 gr bullet with 70 grains of BP. The .45/70 original load wa 70 grs BP and a 400 or 350 gr bullet.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #383632 - 25/03/24 07:59 AM

I havent handled an ORIGINAL Howdah, so I cant judge weight. I have a couple of the Pedersoli 20ga guns. They are hefty but Im not sure Id call them too heavy. By example the Diablo IS too heavy, (not to mention the grip shape is atrocious).

I "think" its also balance issue. Balance the weight of the total gun with the weight and length of the barrels AND the shape and angle/grip shape. For what its worth The Pedersoli BP guns could benefit from a better grip too. I couldnt change the grip on the Pedersoli BP so I shortened the barrels to give it better balance.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (25/03/24 08:09 AM)

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #383633 - 25/03/24 08:07 AM

Im not convinced 45-70 is the BEST cartridge--its NOT; but I DO think its probably the best option. Id much prefer something 50cal or larger (ideally 577). I even toyed with 577/450 Martini; but keep coming back to 45-70 as an actual available and "shootable" cartridge.

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Jim_C
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #383638 - 25/03/24 12:26 PM

Have you considered the 50-70? Sourcing brass can be an issue (but how much would you need?). 348 Winchester brass can be blown out and made to work, rim diameter is a little smaller.

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: Jim_C]
      #383639 - 25/03/24 02:41 PM

How about either 50 Alaskan or 500 Linebaugh, loaded WAY down of course!!!! Starline makes occasional runs of both.

Quickload shows the big Alaska case getting 850fps with a 450 grain bullet in 7" barrels at 18k psi with Trailboss. My original Wilkinson only gets 710fps with 70 grains of 2F and a 450gn bullet. The software shows the snider case has about 85 grains of water "volume" under the bullet and needs a filler wad whereas the Alaskan shows about 75, so I'd imagine it would give about the same velocity with BP.

With the smaller 500L case a bunch of fast powders like unique show 800-900fps at <=18k psi, but black powder would just seem more fitting.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #383640 - 25/03/24 08:12 PM

Re. many original howdahs being chambered for the .577 Snider. This appears to be the case. But there also appears to be Howdah pistols with shortened variants of the 577 Snider. I'm thinking the full Snider might have been a little too much, and lesser recoiling variants were created and purchased.

I've never shot a .577 Snider in rifle or handgun, so don't know.

Is anyone here who shot Cal Pappas' .57< Howdah? Was it the full sized Snider case?

In our modern handloading times, of course we can load down a case to make it more manageable. In previous times, often a BP firearms would have BP hand loading tools for the brass cases in its gun case as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #383641 - 25/03/24 08:16 PM

Regarding what to chamber a custom built Howdah pistol?

I still think a .577 Snider is the way to go.

If original brass is hard to get, I shared a video of someone reloading shotgun shells cut shorter for a .577 Snider rifle. Lead round balls from memory. If this is possible, no problems getting reloading supplies for a Howdah pistol.

Assuming suitable barrels can be sourced, chambers cut etc.

Why not? Stick with the original.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #383644 - 25/03/24 11:41 PM

In a fantasy world of unlimited funds, I'd also consider the .577 Snider. Or custom versions of the .577 NE or .500 NE. Shortened brass cases into a Howdah pistol length case.

The .500 NE .510" and .577 NE .585', Shortening brass, not a problem. Or maybe the .577 BP just loaded down.

Existing pistol or lighter weight projectiles? What true calibre are the .500 handgun cartridges? I think Woodleigh makes a lighter .577 bullet? Or did. Will look it up. Or a lead round ball load.

500 BP .510" 440gr RN SN

50 Alaskan & 50/110 Win .510" 500gr FN SN

06A 500 Nitro .510" 450gr RN SN

577 BP Express .585" 650gr RN SN
3A 577 Nitro .585" 650gr RN SN
4A .584" 650gr FMJ

Existing Double Rifle designs could be modified by the makers into a Howdah pistol. One problem, is .500 and even more so .577 rifles tend to be heavier bigger. Not ideal as a Howdah pistol. Hammers, though are desired.

With unlimited funds, anything might be possible.

I'd get it made to take a detachable butt stock. And even worse Allow it to take unobtrusive mounts for a red dot sight. Make it versatile and useful.

But if a ,577 Snider case can use a shotgun shell or brass case, it's already there and works.

Maybe I need to start a go fund me, ha ha ha. Everyone does these days. For this intriguing project. Only joking.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (26/03/24 12:01 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: TH44]
      #383645 - 25/03/24 11:43 PM

Quote:

These may be of interest



4 cartridge pistols
The only real Howdah is 3rd down, a .577 Snider by Wilkinson
The bottom is a .500



The bottom one here is what you get by "bodging" a shotgun
it is a 16 bore pinfire, I knew what it was and it was very cheap!!
I have seen one for sale in the UK somee years ago that the deealer swore was real!

the other is a Belgian rifled 16 bore pinfire, long heavy barrel, AFAIK not modified
Also cheap so I had to have it

My opinions on real Howdah pistols is known to some of you but whatever they are they are definitely interesting an historical part of the gunmaker's art



Nice collection.

How did you keep your handguns in the UK? Antiques?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #383647 - 26/03/24 12:48 AM

Quote:

Regarding what to chamber a custom built Howdah pistol?

I still think a .577 Snider is the way to go.

If original brass is hard to get, I shared a video of someone reloading shotgun shells cut shorter for a .577 Snider rifle. Lead round balls from memory. If this is possible, no problems getting reloading supplies for a Howdah pistol.

Assuming suitable barrels can be sourced, chambers cut etc.

Why not? Stick with the original.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=24zy58N3Pu8

Making Cheap And Easy 577 Snider Ammunition
53K views · 3 months ago
Everything Black Powder
81.1K

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=382163&an=0&page=0#Post382163

***

.24-bore shotshell. .60 calibre conicals and balls.m

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #383649 - 26/03/24 01:21 AM

Im only leaning towards 45-70 because I have a set of 12ga inserts in 45-70. They can make them permanent or can be removed. I would want them fixed.

I guess barrel inserts could be made in other calibers but Ive never seen them. I tried to get a 577-450 Martini barrel made for a Encore without any luck

Im not fixated on anything yet

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #383650 - 26/03/24 01:29 AM

Quote:

Im only leaning towards 45-70 because I have a set of 12ga inserts in 45-70. They can make them permanent or can be removed. I would want them fixed.




Why not? Go for it. If a suitable donor 12-bore is available. Sounds a possible solution to me.

Can the insert barrels be adjusted for point of impact? i.e. for a form of regulation?

I think plus or minus seven inches is what I'd go for. Would a 1:18 twist rate work?


https://chaszel.com/product/45-70-shotgun-adapters/


Using inserts to make an insert double rifle. No reason a Howdah length 12-bore couldn't work. Shooter loaded trapdoor level .45/70 loads.

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/thread...-rifle.3749835/

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (26/03/24 01:48 AM)

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #383651 - 26/03/24 01:32 AM

I have toyed with just doing a "Howdah" rifle. I think there was a discussion about an original 16" Double Rifle on Africa Hunting. When I talked to the gunsmith about making a pistol stock, the idea of a removable shoulder stock never came up.

I have toyed in the past, with the idea of a detachable stock for a muzzleloader using a super strong magnet. The project is on hold with so many other "that would be cool" projects. Ive got repros of the Luger and Broomhandle stocks for the same project; but they require more machine work than any gunsmith has been willing to take on.

The Pedersoli muzzleloader has an available stock. Its not "baaaaad" and it does make a good tight fit but I think Id prefer something different.

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #383652 - 26/03/24 01:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Im only leaning towards 45-70 because I have a set of 12ga inserts in 45-70. They can make them permanent or can be removed. I would want them fixed.




Why not? If a suitable donor 12-bore is available. Sounds a possible solution to me.

Can the insert barrels be adjusted for point of impact? i.e. for a form of regulation?

I think plus or minus seven inches is what I'd go for.



Yes Im sure they can be at least somewhat regulated if made permanent. Years ago there ware inserts made for the Bakail Coach guns that used shims at the muzzle. My thoughts would be to fit the shim until reasonably regulated then have them fixed in place.

On the off chance they cant be regulated or the gunsmith isnt willing, then Im not terribly upset; afterall this is 90% a fantasy toy. If it "hits" a Tiger size target at say arms length I would say that is Howdah "MOT" (minute of a Tiger)????

--------------------
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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #383653 - 26/03/24 01:49 AM

Maybe the solution is to use 45-70 but re-name it. Hmmmm we could call it 450 Howdah?

Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co will make brass and put a custom name on it. They arent cheap ($10-20 a round) but it is do-able

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (26/03/24 02:03 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #383654 - 26/03/24 01:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Im only leaning towards 45-70 because I have a set of 12ga inserts in 45-70. They can make them permanent or can be removed. I would want them fixed.




Can the insert barrels be adjusted for point of impact? i.e. for a form of regulation?

I think plus or minus seven inches is what I'd go for.



Yes Im sure they can be at least somewhat regulated if made permanent. Years ago there ware inserts made for the Bakail Coach guns that used shims at the muzzle. My thoughts would be to fit the shim until reasonably regulated then have them fixed in place.

On the off chance they cant be regulated or the gunsmith isnt willing, then Im not terribly upset; afterall this is 90% a fantasy toy. If it "hits" a Tiger size target at say arms length I would say that is Howdah "MOT" (minute of a Tiger)????



I'd hope for reasonable accuracy, say a 12 inch circular steel target at say 10 yards. With both barrels. Hopefully better but ...

Now to source a suitable hammer donor shotgun. Barrel inserts of some description and suitable calibre/bore.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (26/03/24 01:55 AM)

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #383655 - 26/03/24 03:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I'd hope for reasonable accuracy, say a 12 inch circular steel target at say 10 yards. With both barrels. Hopefully better but ...

Now to source a suitable hammer donor shotgun. Barrel inserts of some description and suitable calibre/bore.



I would think thats possible, either with shims or by grinding at the muzzle....

As I recall Sabatti regulates their DRs by "grinding" the rifiling at the muzzle. I had a 9.3x74R Sabatti that shot fine. I never noticed anything unusual

--------------------
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