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Does it really "need" to be rifled?

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Does it really "need" to be rifled?

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That depends on the range. Out to 10 yards, I'd say NO.
20 yards, definitely.
The divergence of the balls will grow exponentially with added range.
If wanting to shoot slugs - fast twist necessary.

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Rifling or smooth bore?
Sights or non sighted?

Two scenarios.
1. A modern Howdah designed to use in defence against a tiger on top of an elephant. The original purpose.
1a. Same but home self defence in a house against an intruder.
2. A modern Howdah to shoot targets in a sporting sense of competition.

A smooth bore with or without sights might do for the first one. I suggest a small front sight, or shotgun bead is the minimum.

Rifled and sights, at least a small front sight is probably better, for the second. Smooth bore might work.

The only reasons in my mind for going smooth bore would cost, using existing donor shotguns, and perhaps also shooting shot.

Otherwise if shooting ball, conicals, whatever, suitable rifling would be preferred.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Hammers, under lever ( because it looks better to me and it wouldn't jam into the web of your hand or knuckle like a top or side lever will when you fire it), low shallow v rear sight and large bead front sight. Regulated to 21 feet. 12 or 20 bore shooting some form of conical slug. A lanyard ring. It could be smooth bore or rifled.

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Good points. Vintage Howdahs always have under or side levers.

The rest of the points are spot on as well.

Add 16-bore to the list.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Sooooo, reopening an old thread because I cant get the image out of my head. By now you guys have heard of the Pedersoli 45Colt/410 Howdah's and their B/P versions. The 45/410' work legally because the "beat" the 1/2 inch sporting role limit. I do have to give Pedersoli credit for all the options they offer, (Hammers, non hammer, double and single trigger, even one in nickel and rubber covered wood). They also make B/P versions in 20ga and 50 caliber. The 45/410 guns run $1500-2000 and the B/P versions about $1000

Another "option" is the American Gun Company Diablo. Its a 12ga SxS B/P but it breaks open (like a cartridge gun) to load 209 primers. It has a single trigger and a single hammer that you must pivot left/right for barrel selection. They offer 6" 8" and 11" versions. The 6 inch gun is nice for crossdraw carry, but the 8" feels most "Howdah" to me. The AGC guns run about $700. They even make a grip that allows use of an AR type stock, if you want a very modern option.

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Pity the Diablos look so aweful.

The Pedersoli cartridge side by side aren't Howdahs. Marketing waffle abot some make believe 1930s origins. The pistol grips are simply gross and ugly. If I acquired one idtry to restock it was reasonably as possible. Lacks hammers.

For the prices they could do better.

The muzzle loading pedersolis seem closer to the proper design.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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The Pedersoli "Alaskan" (nickel with black rubber covered wood) at least has a decent shaped grip. They do make a hammer version; but like the others the grip is based on the Ithaca Auto Burglar. I suspect they were trying to entice both the howdah and auto burglar customers. I actually like them as a modern-esque take on the howdah; after all who else is making one.

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The muzzleloader versions are, I think, truer to the original concept of the howdah. I have two. one is the early version with the swiveling ramrod. The other started as a kit and I shortened the barrels to 8 inches. Its easier to carry I had a local guy make me a crossdraw holster and its been worn several times in the shop. The full size can also be used with a stock.

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I seem to recall seeing an original supershort "Howdah Rifle". I cant recall if the stock on the original was fixed of removal.

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I posted some photos of a howdah pistol with a removable butt stock recently.

Also one of our members has a Howdah rifle, a short barrelled .375 rifle. The same rifle was featured on an NE thread several years before as well.

264/Micks and previously Marrakais. Fat Lady, a Greener shotgun conversion to .577 LNE has short barrels and could be called a "Howdah Double Rifle" very easily. 264 abd Marrakai, doing Top End Elephants Shikars!

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Years ago I was involved in 18th century living history. Once a year we had live fire competitions. The handgun class was separated into rifled and smoothbore. Historically guns of that period were both, You guys would know better than me; but I suspect Howdahs were both smooth and rifled. Likewise I suspect some had sights and some didnt. My shortened version does NOT have sights, as I imagine a hastily made or cost effective period gun would have been. The full productions guns all have sights.

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As for self defense from a charging animal Tiger, Wild Boar, or rabid dog; I dont see the need for a sight on a muzzle against flesh shot out to self defense at room distance against a two legged animal. Beyond room distance, I would suggest the howdah is not the best choice, and relying on sights to improve that is a mistake.

The Diablo is ugly by traditional howdah standards. Im pretty sure there was never any intent to duplicate a howdah. That being said; if original howdahs were made from shortened rifles and shotguns, then the Diablo follows that tradition.

I have long considered having a custom built howdah made in the traditional pattern; but lacking a winning lottery ticket or a booked tiger hunt; that contract is on hold

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When I win lotto I have the same eccentric plan. A modern British made Howdah pistol. What cartridge? Would they do it? It must regulate? A shoulder stock as well to make it more versatile. Tiger hunting is rarer than Howdahs nowadays. Would the bureaucrat nazis allow it to be made or owned? Need that one in several hundred million chance lotto win to find out.

In the meantime I hope to come across a vintage example, rifled or smooth bore at a price I can afford.

A Pedersoli ML and/or .45 LC restocked maybe as well. As I wondered want to over use a vintage example on shooting silly paper.

I think they would be simply great fun.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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The third pistol is a breech cartridge loading example with hammers.

No such example is listed anywhere on the Pedersoli website. Only the muzzle loaders have hammers.

Anyone know more about these cartridge howdahs with hammers? Were they shotgun (.410) or rifled (.45 LC)?

This example:

https://www.athlonoutdoors.com/article/pedersoli-howdah/

Pedersoli Howdah Specs

Caliber: .45 Colt/.410
Barrels: 10.25 inches
Overall Length: 17 inches
Weight: 4.5 pounds (empty)
Sights: Brass bead front, folding leaf rear
Stock: Walnut
Action: Sidelock, exposed hammers
Finish: Browned barrels, color-case hardened steel furniture
Capacity: 2
MSRP: $2,035

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (13/03/24 07:56 PM)

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Pedersoli’s Howdah 45/410 is a double triggered, breech loading, extractor pistol reproduction of the famous Auto & Burglar pistol produced by Ithaca in the 1920’s. Pedersoli’s model introduces completely different characteristics making it legal for importation and purchase in the US. The main difference is that Pedersoli’s Howdah 45/410 is chambered in 45 Colt, having 10.25 inch, 6-groove rifled barrels with a 1:48 right hand twist and equipped with lengthened chambers to support use of 3 inch .410 shotshells. The pistol is furnished with a ramp front sight and folding rear leaf sight. The rear grip fits snugly in the hand allowing easily controlled use.The Vintage Variant of the Howdah 45/410 is the pinnacle of the Howdah platform. Featuring a true sidelock action with exposed hammers, the round bodied case colored receiver features double triggers. This model has a unique barrel design that begins round and transitions to octagonal at the muzzle.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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The "Vintage" 45/410 is, "I suppose", the closest currently available option. Ive often wondered if the stock could be re-shaped into something more period Howdah correct??? Im just not sure Im ready to spend $1500-2000 USD on a project, hoping it could be "fixed".

The next question, is 45COLT an acceptable cartridge? How'bout something made from a brass 410 case?

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To buy a vintage .577 Snider or variant Howdah pistol, $5000 to $30000, $2000 is not bad.

The .45 Long Colt cartridge is inadequate. Might as well use a revolver. But if shooting targets as part of a fun howdah competition, it is better than nothing.

Maybe .410 brass cases loaded with a .45 projectile might be possible and more gutsy? Safe? No idea.

Fixed is only restocking to remove that ugly pistol grip stock. T the same time allow a shoulder stock to be used as well.

This "vintage" model does have external hammers though. IMO pretty much a requirement on a real Howdah pistol.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (16/03/24 02:07 PM)

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