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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8664
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
.577 Howdah
      #353772 - 27/05/21 04:39 AM

imho, a textbook howdah in the next Holt's auction

https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/as...374&image=3

WILKINSON & SON, LONDON
A .577 (SNIDER) DOUBLE-BARRELLED HOWDAH-PISTOL, serial no. 7990,
circa 1880, with 6 1/2in. rifled barrels, the top rib signed 'WILKINSON & SON, 27 PALL MALL LONDON', bead fore-sight on a shallow ramp, engraved band at breech, rounded side-lever opening action (traces of colour), standing notch rear-sight to front of top-strap, blued serpentine side-lever with chequered thumb-piece, scroll engraved curved back-action locks signed within engraved tri-folded banners 'WILKINSON, PALL MALL, LONDON', plain hammers, chequered walnut pistol-grip butt bearing the stamped serial number in the wood only, moulded butt-cap with central horseshoe-shaped lanyard swivel, full length trigger-guard tang and diminutive captive borderline engraved iron fore-end with traces of colour, overall length 13 1/4in., weight approximately 3 1/4lbs.










thats what it have to be

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: .577 Howdah [Re: lancaster]
      #353782 - 27/05/21 07:10 AM

Man she would have some kick!
I remember an old lady telling me one day when she was a 'much, much' younger lady that she had to shoot a snider one day (most probably getting rid of pigs in there crops) - "damn thing kicked like a mule". At just over 8 1/2 lbs it would have a fair old thump either end!
But at just over 3 lbs it would have been fearsome.........better that or get eaten by a tiger!
Wonderful example Lancaster to say the least!


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: 93x64mm]
      #353783 - 27/05/21 08:05 AM

I wouldn't expect too terribly much recoil from that pistol.

Bullet weight would be about 450gr, powder charge would be about 70 grains

I've shot that much powder and more behind similar weight paradox bullets in my percussion 20 bore howdah

One hand no problem.
I think the 577 Snider is a good handgun cartridge.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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sbs470
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: 93x64mm]
      #353784 - 27/05/21 08:15 AM

WOW I want one
a real wrist breaker . I think I'd load that one with trail boss


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DarylS
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: sbs470]
      #353785 - 27/05/21 08:23 AM

Oh yeah - I wants one or two of those!
I think the recoil would be much than a .44Mag.4", but no where near as "Sharp/Snappy". Likely more muzzle rise, but certainly manageable.
I think it would be a lot of fun to shoot - maybe even better with 'hardened' round balls.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: Colorado
Re: .577 Howdah [Re: DarylS]
      #353787 - 27/05/21 09:26 AM

“imho, a textbook howdah...“

Totally agree!
I know we’ve discussed this very topic at length before but THIS gun is exactly as I have argued a “Howdah Pistol” is.

Quick simple sights, no safeties, a lanyard ring and in a big bore cartridge which is just on the edge of controllability.
Yes, now THIS is a Howdah!
So many other pistol variations are being offered as Howdahs these days, many better described as Travellers Pistols.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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tinker
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: sbs470]
      #353789 - 27/05/21 09:50 AM

Quote:

WOW I want one
a real wrist breaker . I think I'd load that one with trail boss




I would not attempt to load trail boss in the Snider for this gun.

Black powder only.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: tinker]
      #353794 - 27/05/21 12:06 PM

Interesting that the Fleming book "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges" does list a light .577 Snider loading of 51 grains powder under a 480 grains Lead Round Nose bullet by Eley. Possibly these would have been more commonly used in such pistols?
Still in all a standard 70/480 load would not be worse than a .454 Casull....
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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DarylS
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: tinker]
      #353795 - 27/05/21 12:07 PM

I am in agreement about not using Trail Boss in this pistol. Pressures are higher with TB than they are with black powder, as well as having a different pressure curve.
I would suggest the 20 bore loaded with round ball, at tiger repelling distances, even to 15 yards, would be slightly better at the job than the .577 Snider.
Better yet, would be a 16, 14 or 12 bore SxS pistol.
The reason being more than sufficient penetration, especially with hardened balls & the capability of heavier loads yet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: DarylS]
      #353797 - 27/05/21 12:27 PM

Quote:

I am in agreement about not using Trail Boss in this pistol. Pressures are higher with TB than they are with black powder, as well as having a different pressure curve.
I would suggest the 20 bore loaded with round ball, at tiger repelling distances, even to 15 yards, would be slightly better at the job than the .577 Snider.
Better yet, would be a 16, 14 or 12 bore SxS pistol.
The reason being more than sufficient penetration, especially with hardened balls & the capability of heavier loads yet.




+1 .....no Trail Boss!
This type of thing is not "cowboy action shooting" and expecting to use loads and powders common in that pistol sport are asking for trouble with large case capacities such as the Snider.
As often as one of these might be fired, and as easy as it would be to clean, there is NO reason to use anything but Black Powder (with lubed wool felt wads 'or .58 cal Wonder Wads' to take up excess space if need be)
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: 3DogMike]
      #353798 - 27/05/21 12:54 PM

I want. I want. Let the Lotto gods tomorrow night smile on me.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: NitroX]
      #353799 - 27/05/21 12:59 PM

Pedersoli needs to borrow that thing and use it to re-engineer a production version!!

Complete with lanyard loop!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: .577 Howdah [Re: 9.3x57]
      #353802 - 27/05/21 09:14 PM

Quote:

Pedersoli needs to borrow that thing and use it to re-engineer a production version!!

Complete with lanyard loop!!




It pretty obvious that Pedersoli just cut down a shotgun. Im kinda alright with that. I gotta believe a few were Howdah's were made exactly that way. OTOH I do like the purpose built ones

IF we lived in a modern version of the 19th century, you can bet there would have been quite a few "economy" hunters sitting at the kitchen table with their SxS and a hacksaw before they left for India. There will always be folks that look for the cheap route. Its the cream that rises to the top and the curds that sink.

I truly DO appreciate the nice ones and wish someone would make a nice period looking Howdah in both cartridge and muzzleloader

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #353819 - 28/05/21 03:13 PM

Completely different.

A Howdah pistol vs Sawn off shotguns ...

I doubt any gentlemen hunting on the back of an elephant in India would be seen dead with a "sawn off shotgun".

This wasn't hill billy red neck Apalachian country ... Or Sicily.

***

I too think Pedersoli would do well to copy such a real example of a Howdah such as this one, instead of those aweful anominations they pretend are Howdahs.

A commercial compromise for a brass case Howdah, might be a .45/70 chambered howdahpistol of proper design. An original .577 Howdah cartridge might be loaded with a .577 480 gr projectile and 70 grns of BP. So a .45/70 with a 400 to 480 gr projectile with a 70 grn charge of BP or equivalent smokeless, would be well in the neighbourhood. I would buy one pretty quickly if a decent Howdah design was put out at a reasonable price.

I would prefer the real .577 bore though and even the .577 cartridges originally chambered. Is brass for these still available?

I wonder how well a Howdah pistol was regulated? Were they regualted at all? Shooting at a tiger on the back or head of an elephant would not require fine regulation a tall. Regulation is expensive so if not needed to be finely regulated, costs could be kept lower.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (28/05/21 03:15 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: NitroX]
      #353820 - 28/05/21 03:23 PM

Quote:

WILKINSON & SON, LONDON
A .577 (SNIDER) DOUBLE-BARRELLED HOWDAH-PISTOL, serial no. 7990,
circa 1880, with 6 1/2in. rifled barrels, the top rib signed 'WILKINSON & SON, 27 PALL MALL LONDON', bead fore-sight on a shallow ramp, engraved band at breech, rounded side-lever opening action (traces of colour), standing notch rear-sight to front of top-strap, blued serpentine side-lever with chequered thumb-piece, scroll engraved curved back-action locks signed within engraved tri-folded banners 'WILKINSON, PALL MALL, LONDON', plain hammers, chequered walnut pistol-grip butt bearing the stamped serial number in the wood only, moulded butt-cap with central horseshoe-shaped lanyard swivel, full length trigger-guard tang and diminutive captive borderline engraved iron fore-end with traces of colour, overall length 13 1/4in., weight approximately 3 1/4lbs.



Please click HERE to view Terms & Conditions. Please note all Lots are listed in accordance with UK Law, for overseas buyers, please ensure you are familiar with your relevant local firearms and customs regulations before bidding.

Estimate £5,000-8,000

Sold as an exempt item under Section 58 (2) of the 1968 Firearms Act, to be held as a curiosity or ornament




At that price range, in slightly better times, and less imminent future commitments, I would be a serious bidder.

I asked Cal Pappas what he received for his similar (?) handgun and it was considerably more.

Hopefully this howdah does not end up in some fatcat's 400 gun "collection" to gather dust forever on a shelf somewhere.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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degoins
.333 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 423
Loc: SC, USA
Re: .577 Howdah [Re: NitroX]
      #353828 - 29/05/21 12:59 AM

"I wonder how well a Howdah pistol was regulated? Were they regualted at all? Shooting at a tiger on the back or head of an elephant would not require fine regulation a tall. Regulation is expensive so if not needed to be finely regulated, costs could be kept lower."

I cant remember if it was Cal or not, but somebody had one and decided to do an accuracy test on it and concluded that it was ok......within 10 feet or some such. About what they were made for. I know I'd love to have one.


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85lc
.375 member


Reged: 19/01/18
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Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: .577 Howdah [Re: degoins]
      #353829 - 29/05/21 02:12 AM

I would think that how closely the barrels were regulated would depend upon how was holding the pistol. With a strong hold they may be regulated but with a less than strong hold, they would shoot wide. However, shooting t 10' or less, regulation is likely moot.

The pistol would be great fun to have and shoot.

If it were for sale in the US, I might consider submitting a bid.

--------------------
RB


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TH44
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: Huvius]
      #353835 - 29/05/21 09:37 AM

Plus one definitely for Huvius' opinion



Mine is identical but not as good condition

I expect it will well exceed the high estimate

TH44


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: TH44]
      #353838 - 29/05/21 12:03 PM

Quote:

Plus one definitely for Huvius' opinion



Mine is identical but not as good condition

I expect it will well exceed the high estimate

TH44




Have you shot yours? How well does it regulate and at what ranges?

A reason for the regulation interest, is the need for shooting a tiger or leopard off an elephant's back is no longer a great need. But if legal I wonder how well they would work for hunting? At I suppose pretty short ranges.

Is yours a .577 Snider?

Can you get brass?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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TH44
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: NitroX]
      #353849 - 29/05/21 11:43 PM

Hi Nitrox
Yes it is .577 Snider
It is totally illegal to shoot in the UK
What about Australia? (is that where you are?)
I have a Snider rifle on certificate so have ammunition but if I put in the pistol
5 Years in jail!!
I did shoot one at Cal Pappas' Alaska shoot a couple of years ago, recoil "stout' but was admonished for using 2 hands!! The guy then shot 4 shots one handed!

They are really collector's pieces (plus fun shooting if legal) their accuracy in doubt past 20 yards??
How many were actually in Howdahs is very arguable, the only record I have seen as a back up gun was a 12 bore with one barrel RB and one LG (00 buck to our US friends)
I have a DB "Howdah rifle" (posted here) with 19" barrels in .577/500 which I have shot with a dealer's certificate

TH


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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: TH44]
      #353850 - 30/05/21 05:10 AM

Yes, brass is available, properly head stamped from Bertram, and I make a few different moulds to suit. I believe even Simplex does make reloading dies to suit.
DC


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #353856 - 30/05/21 08:08 AM

I thought the .577 Snider Howdah cartridge was a different short case compared to the .577 rifle cartridge?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: TH44]
      #353859 - 30/05/21 08:55 AM

Quote:

Hi Nitrox
Yes it is .577 Snider
It is totally illegal to shoot in the UK
What about Australia? (is that where you are?)
I have a Snider rifle on certificate so have ammunition but if I put in the pistol
5 Years in jail!!




I do not know the law in Australia and also different states,

A Howdah handgun MIGHT be able to be owned as a non shooting antique. If it satisfies the age test, which it would. And if ammunition is not readily available for it.

As noted it can be handloaded, but so can many other antques not being shot.

If owned as a collectors firearm, a collectors firearm can be shot in South Aust ONE TIME per year. And ammunition can not be held for the collectors firearm. Some states and territories such as the NT have far better collectors laws.

I am not sure how the difference between an antique, ie not on the firearms register, and a collectors firearm, ie on the firearms regisater, works. Obviously different.

The BGRC - Big Game Rifle Club - has a Howdah shoot discipline. I don't know if any club actually shoots the Howdah shoots? I think it is shooting paper only. If my opinion a Howdah shoot needs to be from a rocking or wobbly platform and shoot pop up tigers and leopards at close range , which also pop down again seconds later. Might be difficult to do safely. I do want to build such a setup myself.

I would also like to see steel silouhette style targets for a Howdah competition. WHY? Because in Australia we have a maximum handgun calibre size of 9 mm/.38. In South Aust the only acceptable exclusion to this ban for our SA Police, is if metal targets need more power to be knicked over. A .577 Howdah is out of bounds if shooting paper. But knocking over a sizable metal target might be acceptable. Another proviso has been the competition needed to be Olympic or Commonwealth competition recognised, which BGRC is not.

Hunting in South Aust with a handgun is not legal.

I would try to buy one anyway. And would obviously want to shoot it. Even if only as a collector until things change if ever. Or as an antique if that was the only way.

I am serious grieved to not be able to bid for this item. Have been thinking of what I could sell, a double rifle not used yet, organs, my soul?

But I may be purchasing half or more of a pastoral bush block very soon and that will be "spare funds" for a few decades.

I think these howdahs are reasonable investments as well, for those who can or will sell them on oneday.

A real pity you can not shoot your howdah handgun in Borisistan.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: .577 Howdah [Re: NitroX]
      #353860 - 30/05/21 09:06 AM

Quote:

I thought the .577 Snider Howdah cartridge was a different short case compared to the .577 rifle cartridge?






--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: .577 Howdah [Re: NitroX]
      #353862 - 30/05/21 10:07 AM

I had a Reilly Howdah on my bench a couple of years ago, set up for the Snider.
It took full length brass.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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