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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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CJF
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What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun?
      #353559 - 19/05/21 10:33 AM

Took a risk on a vaguely described auction listing. Trying to figure out what I have.

I'll post better pictures in a few days but for now, here's a link to the auction. https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-M...5/lotInformation/60704024&rfpb=0#Top

Description said shotgun, but pictures showed rifle sights and Rigby-style fore end latch. Maker is Jos. Sigott of Ferlach. Auction house shipped quickly and I have it in hand.

Tiny. Small frame. Hammers. Engraving a mix of decent and cheap. Barrels tight on face, short at 23" even. Do not appear cut. Rifle barrel is on right. Stamped 12.5 underneath. Appears to be 60mm or slightly more to leade or forcing code. Maybe 12.5mmx60r Danish? a .500 BPE case rim fits the rim recess. Rifling looks like Henry style. Haven't measured the 20ga barrel yet. Fired 20 hull does not go in easily and haven't forced it. Shotgun tube marked 14.9.

Proofs appear to be Ferlach post 1891. Has first rifle firing proof, and 1956.11, which I take to be the 1,956th gun proofed in Ferlach in 1911. That right?

The bottom rib is marked 5624 10 158 11.8 Haven't figured that one out yet.

Anyone have a suggestion on what the 12.5mm rifle cartridge might be?

(I posted this also at doublegunshop dot com. Hope that's not too annoying)

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tinker
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: CJF]
      #353560 - 19/05/21 11:54 AM

Nothing annoying here!

Looks like a great candidate for a bit of attention then straight to the field.

I see a set trigger.
Scalloped action too.
Nice grip shape.
Wood looks savable.
The trigger guard tang looks loose at the wrist.
I'd have the locks and trigger plate off for cleaning and inspection.
Right lock might have a somewhat different tumbler than the left lock for that set trigger.

It's too late in my day to grab a proof marks directory.
I'd be looking for my Cerrosafe alloy and then clean and cast both chambers.
I'd slug the rifle bore.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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3DogMike
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: tinker]
      #353561 - 19/05/21 11:59 AM

What Tinker suggested:
1) chamber cast
2) slug the bore

Otherwise it is pi$$ing into the wind.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #353567 - 19/05/21 03:04 PM

12.5mm is .492".

12.17x44R?

That is undersized at almost .48" but is said to be a .50 cal. & the Swedish version of the .50/70.

Thus, chamber + barrel slugging - cerosafe for the chamber, pure lead for the bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: DarylS]
      #353577 - 19/05/21 10:04 PM

Johann Sigott, Kirchgasse, Ferlach house number 34, lived from 1872 to 1955.
A chamber cast will certainly answer the question about caliber, but a 12.7x60R aka .500 2 3/8” cartridge was a quite popular sporting number in pre-WW1 Austro-Hungary. A lead bullet, blackpowder cartridge with no British equivalent, it was made until WW2. 12.5 mm may stand for the bore, not groove or bullet, diameter. Or it may have been made slightly undersize for best accuracy with the factory greased lead bullets.

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CJF
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: kuduae]
      #353578 - 19/05/21 10:15 PM

I will take a cast this weekend. And recast the Dickson I have as well. Thanks all.

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kuduae
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: CJF]
      #353633 - 21/05/21 02:27 AM

This is the 12.7x60R cartridge mentioned, as shown in the 1914 Franz Sodia, Ferlach catalog. The lead bullet shown was about 430 gr.

Dimensions according to the 1904 DWM catalog: rim 16.5 mm = .650", base 14.55 mm = .573", length 60.4 mm = 2.38"

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DarylS
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: kuduae]
      #353635 - 21/05/21 02:30 AM

12.7x60 would be a little shorter than the .50/90 Sharps 2.5" case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: CJF]
      #353678 - 22/05/21 06:07 AM

Some nice closer up pics of this interesting gun/rifle would be appreciated by many of us I am sure

TH44

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CJF
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: TH44]
      #353693 - 23/05/21 05:06 AM

Thank you all for the interest and help so far. Here are some pictures.



















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CJF
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: CJF]
      #353695 - 23/05/21 06:21 AM

Rifle: Cast shows case length of 60mm. Diameter at base is .558” Diameter near neck is .536”. Bore is .490”

Shotgun: Also 60mm long case. Diameter at base .660". Bore is 0.594 or 15mm. I had thought this was a 20 gauge but it seems to be a 24ga as a 28ga shell is too small. Rim cut is 0.722".

Images show shotgun cast first, then rifle:








Edited by CJF (23/05/21 07:12 AM)

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tinker
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: CJF]
      #353696 - 23/05/21 06:53 AM

The rifle bore looks fantastic!
Slender scalloped action, and the set trigger -- time to get this one ready for the field.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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TH44
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: tinker]
      #353697 - 23/05/21 08:23 AM

Many thanks CJF certainly you have an excellent gun/rifle
The low hammers, lack of percussion style fences as well as the top lever certainly point to the later date

TH

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DarylS
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: TH44]
      #353698 - 23/05/21 08:45 AM



Hello CJF - it appears you are measuring the groove diameter, not the bore, at .589".
This is an important difference. I see 6 lands and grooves - & decent condition. Excellent.
Now, to finding an appropriate mould!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: DarylS]
      #353699 - 23/05/21 09:07 AM

Yes, on your casting the big diameter is the groove, the small diameter is the bore

That caliper looks to be reading about 0.489"ish

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinker
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: tinker]
      #353700 - 23/05/21 09:51 AM

At the shot barrel, Snider brass would work, although a bit short. Magtech 24ga brass could work too if you can get it.

Graf's has the magtech brass

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/11079

50 Alaskan brass might work for the rifle barrel, so 348 Winchester could be used as a parent case.

Graf's has it

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/77981

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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kuduae
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: tinker]
      #353701 - 23/05/21 07:58 PM

.348 brass is markedly shorter than 60 mm and a bit undersized in base and rim. You are better off using shortened .470 NE or .500 NE brass, available from Graf's too.
The 24 bore was quite popular in Austria as it allowed slim combinations.

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tinker
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Re: What 12.5mm cartridge likely for early Ferlach cape gun? [Re: kuduae]
      #353703 - 23/05/21 09:16 PM

He noted a base diameter of the chamber as 0.558" diameter.
500 NE brass is called out as 0.575" base diameter. He'll need some clearance in there. I'm seeing 348 brass called out as 0.553" base diameter. That's a 0.005" difference. 0.0025" per side isn't a huge bit of clearance. It would work great, especially once it's fire formed to blow the shoulder out of the virgin brass.
348 Winchester would make a pretty easy path.

Although it might not be perfect and there might be something that's exactly what he needs, at least he wouldn't need to set up to lathe turn the cartridge base to fit the chamber.

Looking at his chamber casting, although it's 60mm to the end of the chamber that's not the case length, he'll need to seat the bullet in shorter brass in order to clear the leade of the rifling. At it's 57mm plus case length 348 brass will need trimming to enable chambering a cartridge with a seated bullet. Additionally it's relatively inexpensive and it's available.




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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