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buckstix
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a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal.
      #351783 - 27/03/21 07:30 PM

Hello All,

Here is my recently acquired rifle. I don't know a lot about the maker or the caliber, so any information you might have to share would be appreciated.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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lancaster
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: buckstix]
      #351785 - 27/03/21 11:22 PM

hello buckstix

this is nice as possible, wonder how it get out of Königsberg

just see here http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=316340&an=0&page=4#Post316340

please contact peter in denmark, fine gentleman and know more about funk than other
http://www.christophfunk.dk/

the 5,6x61 vom hofe is very special, my only contact with this round was a lot of 200 original cartridges I sold some years ago. post war stuff but I believe having one box of this still in the collection.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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kuduae
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: lancaster]
      #351789 - 28/03/21 01:17 AM

Peter Ravn Lund’s book on Christoph Funk is also available through the German Gun Collectors Association, https://www.germanguns.com/shop/books/page/2/
Your rifle was proofed January 1940. Funk built it on s WW1 Karabiner 98 AZ small ring Mauser action. The barrel was supplied by the Suhl barrelmaker Louis Kelber. The 1970s scope was mounted much later.
The rifle was retailed by Rudolf Zimmermann, Koenigsberg in East Prussia, now Kaliningrad, Russia since 1945.
The 5.6x61 Super Express vom Hofe cartridge was introduced by the ballistic experimenter Ernst August vom Hofe, Berlin in 1937. Nearly all prewar "vom Hofe" rifles were built by Ch.Funk.
5.6x61 ammo is a real problem. This proprietary cartridge was once distributed by v.Hofe’s successor, Gehmann in Karlsruhe https://gehmann.com/english/impressum.php . But their webpage does not show it anymore. Handloading is a problem too. The case is based as a necked down 6.5x61, an experimental cartridge once made by DWM for Sweden. So it has the .10” larger base diameter of the 6.5x55 SE. This makes reforming available brass near impossible. Here in Germany old “Gehmann” or Horneber brass is available sometimes. Or you may ask https://huelsenmanufaktur.de/homepage/ .
The 5.6x61 used 77 gr .228” bullets. The 70 gr .228 bullets still made for the 5.6x52R aka .22 HP Savage are too fragile for the v.Hofe. Perhaps DKT or Hawk can supply strong jacket 77gr bullets in this odd diameter?
The DEVA once listed two pressure tested loads:
70 gr Hornady, 51.5 gr IMR 4831 for 3540 fps
77 gr Gehmann original, 53.2 gr IMR 4831 for 3500 fps
As the cartridge is known for Secondary Explosion Effects, downloading is advised against.


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93x64mm
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: kuduae]
      #351791 - 28/03/21 06:31 AM

That's a one fancy piece of kit Buckstix - & as rare as rocking horse poo by what kuduae's says!
If no luck getting cases you might be able to try Bruce Bertram here in Oz & see if he could make a run of them if you provide the dimensions.
Found his contact details for you mate
https://www.austandnzdefence.com/listings/listing_details/bertram-bullet-co-pty-ltd


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Daryl_S
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: kuduae]
      #351793 - 28/03/21 06:35 AM

"Call me curious, I went to the Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions by John Donnelly.
Oddly enough, there are two versions shown.
The first is a rimless case, pretty close, dimensionally, to a 22-06.
The other is rimmed, and made by shortening a 9,3x74R case.
Both take a .228" bullet according to the book. Both fire a 70gr bullet around 3000fps."

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: Daryl_S]
      #351796 - 28/03/21 07:47 AM

one is the 5,6x61 for mauser actions http://old.municion.org/VomHofe/5_6.htm

and the other is the 5,6x61R for break actions, single shots http://old.municion.org/VomHofe/5_6R.htm

all rare

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Louis
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: lancaster]
      #351797 - 28/03/21 09:03 AM

Really nice rifle Buckstyx, and a piece of history since Königsberg doesn’t exist anymore as such; a Prussian territory since long before AD 1000, East Prussia was seized in 1945 by the Soviet Union. Having the Königsberg name engraved on a rifle links you therefore to a by-gone era; I think I have also seen on the market Gewehr 98 rifles bearing the Königsberg name, as there was probably a military arsenal there prior to 1918.

The 5,6x61 SE V. Hofe (1937) delivers ballistic performances more or less similar to the 240 Weatherby Magnum (1968), with a 75-grain bullet; it is still manufactured in Germany by a company which name is Labor Für Ballistik www.lfb-munition.com ; they may have an agent in the USA from which you may get either ammunition or reloading components, and it should be worth contacting them.



Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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kuduae
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: Louis]
      #351798 - 28/03/21 09:25 AM

Here you may find the official CIP specs for the rimless version:
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/tabical-en-page6.pdf
and here for the rimmed one:
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/tabiical-en-page5.pdf


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buckstix
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: kuduae]
      #351803 - 28/03/21 11:31 AM

Hello lancaster,
Thanks for your reply.

I have written to Peter in hopes of a reply.

.

Hello kuduae,
Thanks for your reply.

I have copied your information to the file on this rifle. As always, your detailed information is most appreciated. Thank you.

.

Hello 93x64mm,
Thanks for the reply.

I purchased some 5.6x61R Bertram Brass and have removed the rim. Seems to work very well.

.

Hello Daryl_S
Thanks for the reply.

I also made some cases by re-forming 30-06 brass. The head is a little undersized, but it seems to work OK.

.

Hello Louis,
Thanks for the reply.

I appreciate the info and have kept the ballistic chart in my folder.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Daryl_S
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: buckstix]
      #351806 - 28/03/21 11:49 AM

Buckstix - Possible excessive case head expansion.

Perhaps 9.3x62 cases be better?

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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buckstix
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: Daryl_S]
      #351815 - 28/03/21 03:23 PM

I measured the 9.3x62 cases ... not much different.

I've fired te re-formed 06 cases several times ... no problem.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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lancaster
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: buckstix]
      #351817 - 28/03/21 06:33 PM

I have used 8x56R brass in the 8x58RD,its 0.3 to 0.4 mm to thin over the rim. blowing out after the first load it remained but of course its a question of pressure.
there was once a site for reloading the swedish machine gun cartridge 8x63 http://old.municion.org/8/8x63Bofors.htm

there were some K98k rechambered for this round for machine gun crews so they use the same ammo. plain and simple 3006 brass was used whats 0,5 mm under size at base.
for fire forming the base was wrapped with tape so it stands centered in the chamber and blow out uniform.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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buckstix
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: lancaster]
      #351821 - 29/03/21 12:02 AM

Hello lancaster,
Thanks for the reply.

When I fire-formed the 30-06 brass I wrapped with a single layer of tape at the head. All went well.

Today I had one of the modified 5.6x61R cases "bow out" at the extractor groove. I cut-off the rim, but made too wide an extractor groove, and too much bevel. I found a source for custom brass called Robertson Cartridge Co. (RCC). 60 pieces of brass will cost $375 USD delivered. That comes to $6.25 each - ouch!

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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93x64mm
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: buckstix]
      #351839 - 29/03/21 06:54 AM

Great to hear you have got proper cases coming after all & getting this speedster going Buckstix is no mean feat either!
As always looking forward to your very detailed range report.


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buckstix
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: 93x64mm]
      #351891 - 31/03/21 03:26 AM

Hello 93x64mm
Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately RCC is running 3 - 4 months delivery. I can't wait that long ... I'm too old.

I've ordered some more 5.6x61R brass and will modify them, but this time with a very narrow extractor groove.

I also posted pictures of my friend's rifle. It is nearly identical to mine with a few differences. I hope to get as much info about his rifle, as I did for mine.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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buckstix
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: buckstix]
      #352046 - 06/04/21 11:50 AM

Well, received the 5.6x61R cases and modified them to rimless. 5 minutes per case ... 3-1/2 hours to modify 40 cases. here's the steps involved. This has been the most time-consuming project I've had the displeasure to tackle.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Louis
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: buckstix]
      #352054 - 06/04/21 05:35 PM

Great achievement Buckstix; "where there is a will there is a way"!
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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93x64mm
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: Louis]
      #352083 - 07/04/21 01:04 PM

Well done mate, yes its a pain in the freckle, but hey you got there in the end!
Now for the shooting bit!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: 93x64mm]
      #352089 - 07/04/21 03:04 PM

Wow. Impressive. Way over my reloading gaf factor if I had to do it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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kuduae
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: NitroX]
      #352107 - 08/04/21 02:22 AM

Quote:

I have emailed Zeiss with the serial number of my scope to see if they can give me a date of production. The serial number is: 398879. So far no response.



Most likely you will not get a satisfactory answer from the existing Zeiss company. You asked the wrong maker. After WW2 the management and stock of the Carl Zeiss company relocated from Jena, east Germany, to west Germany and resumed production in their still existing and owned western factories, Hensoldt, Wetzlar, among them. This is the still existing “Zeiss” ompany. The old Zeiss factories in the east were expropriated by the commies and run as a VEB = Publicly Owned Enterprise. That east German “Zeiss” sold it’s products under the “Carl Zeiss, Jena” label until stopped doing so by lawsuits in several countries. You often find their products labeled “Auss Jena”. After German reunification Zeiss /west was not interested to take over the somewhat outdated scope work in Eisfeld, east. The factory tried to continue under a “Docter” label, but failed after a few years.
Your “Zeiss” VZF = Variables ZielFernrohr was made by that eastern company. It is marked DDR = GDR. So the existing western Zeiss company most likely has no Information on the once competing east German “Carl Zeiss, Jena” production.


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Daryl_S
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: kuduae]
      #352114 - 08/04/21 04:09 AM

Good lathe work, buckstix. I used a similar method for converting .450 Alaskan to my .458 Alaskan (rebated rim for magnum bolt face). I ground a cutter to do the extractor groove and bevel in one plunge cut. It also easily turned the rim to proper size, so one tool to do it all.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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buckstix
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Re: a Christoph Funk Mauser in 5.6x61 Von Hofe cal. [Re: Daryl_S]
      #352171 - 09/04/21 03:14 AM

Quote:

Great achievement Buckstix; "where there is a will there is a way"!
Louis



Hello Louis,
Thanks for the reply.

Quote:

Well done mate, yes its a pain in the freckle, but hey you got there in the end!
Now for the shooting bit!



Hello 93x64mm
Thanks for the reply.

Quote:

Wow. Impressive. Way over my reloading gaf factor if I had to do it.



Hello NitroX
Thanks for the reply.

Quote:

Most likely you will not get a satisfactory answer from the existing Zeiss company. You asked the wrong maker. After WW2 the management and stock of the Carl Zeiss company relocated from Jena, east Germany, to west Germany and resumed production in their still existing and owned western factories, Hensoldt, Wetzlar, among them. This is the still existing “Zeiss” company. The old Zeiss factories in the east were expropriated by the commies and run as a VEB = Publicly Owned Enterprise. That east German “Zeiss” sold it’s products under the “Carl Zeiss, Jena” label until stopped doing so by lawsuits in several countries. You often find their products labeled “Auss Jena”. After German reunification Zeiss /west was not interested to take over the somewhat outdated scope work in Eisfeld, east. The factory tried to continue under a “Docter” label, but failed after a few years.
Your “Zeiss” VZF = Variables ZielFernrohr was made by that eastern company. It is marked DDR = GDR. So the existing western Zeiss company most likely has no Information on the once competing east German “Carl Zeiss, Jena” production.



Hello Kuduae,
Thanks for the reply.
You are correct, I have not received an answer to my inquiry.

Quote:

Good lathe work, buckstix. I used a similar method for converting .450 Alaskan to my .458 Alaskan (rebated rim for magnum bolt face). I ground a cutter to do the extractor groove and bevel in one plunge cut. It also easily turned the rim to proper size, so one tool to do it all.



Hello Daryl_S
Thanks for the reply.
I tried the "one-tool" approach on the first 60 pieces of brass. The gummy brass would "pull" - resulting in in-consistent rim and groove dimensions. This step-by-step method proved to be more uniform.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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