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lancaster
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CIL 43 mauser brass
      #351627 - 22/03/21 04:17 AM

someone ask me if I could load him his 11,15x60R mauser 71 brass with my die set.
get it today, some were CIL brass never loaded - must be from the 1960s. maybe daryl could remeber!




you never know what for strange stuff still exist after so much years






side by side with bertram brass, notice the shoulder


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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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85lc
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: lancaster]
      #351630 - 22/03/21 08:56 AM

Nice brass. I remember CIL brass from late 1960s.

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RB


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Viking338
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: 85lc]
      #351631 - 22/03/21 09:03 AM

Yes interesting about the shoulder. Wonder was there an “improved” version with a bit more case capacity?

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Daryl_S
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: Viking338]
      #351632 - 22/03/21 09:20 AM

Yes - nice brass. Most often, the CIL brass is nice brass. That appears 60's and/or early 70's.
One thing about the model 71's, is there was a 76 version as well as 1884 models of the 71.
The 84's had a .446" groove diameter, however the 76's had a .457" groove diameter, yet would only allow
.446" bullets in the chamber. Thus, straight black powder and paper patched bullets had to be used for decent accuracy in the earlier rifles.
The CIL ammunition that I saw, was with a .446" groove, lubricated bullet & was loaded with smokeless powder.
These did not shoot well in the 71/76 rifles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: Viking338]
      #351657 - 23/03/21 07:45 AM

Quote:

Yes interesting about the shoulder. Wonder was there an “improved” version with a bit more case capacity?




don't think so, must be "basic brass" needs resizing or fire forming
will measure it next time

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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fuhrmann
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: lancaster]
      #351663 - 23/03/21 06:56 PM

I do remember these, too.
Inherited some of these from my father, who had acquired them sometime in the 1970s.
Intended for reforming into 11,2x51R Kropatschek-Heissig.

These cases have very thin walls and little material in the case head area.
Good case volume for loading black powder but very susceptible to case head separation.

The case shoulder needs to be just in the right position, or you have split cases.
fuhrmann


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Daryl_S
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: Viking338]
      #351680 - 24/03/21 04:06 AM

Quote:

Yes interesting about the shoulder. Wonder was there an “improved” version with a bit more case capacity?




With only .006" taper in the case, it is virtually an Improved ctg. from the get-go. However the neck is much longer than needed.
The case capacity, holding 77gr. of rifle powder and a 340gr.(about) bullet was a decent load for it's use.

The 11mm Mauser was a black-powder cartridge developed for the Mauser Model 1871 rifle, and used later in the 71/84 variant.
It is no longer in production, however it is available from custom loaders and handloading can be done to replenish spent ammunition.

Case length: 6 cm
Bullet diameter: .446 in (11.3 mm)
Rim diameter: .586 in (14.9 mm)
Base diameter: .516 in (13.1 mm)
Neck diameter: .465 in (11.8 mm)
Shoulder diameter: .510 in (13.0 mm)
Used by: Germany, Japan, Qing Dynasty, Uruguay, Korean Empire

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: Daryl_S]
      #351697 - 24/03/21 03:46 PM

because there is also Bertram brass in this lot and I use homemade 330 grains bullet from a lee mould sized to .446 which require a shorter oal because the diameter on top is not reduced to reach into the barrel it will end with a relatively low powder load. with a felt wad behind the bullet maybe 60 grains blackpowder.

thats ok because its only for target shooting. do you think its a good idea to aneal this like new looking brass to prevent splitting?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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eagle27
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: lancaster]
      #351699 - 24/03/21 04:15 PM

Yes I would definitely anneal the neck/shoulder area as brass does get brittle with age even when not being fired and worked in dies. Annealing does no harm even if not required immediately, problem is you won't know whether required or not until you seat a bullet or fire the loaded cartridges, then it's too late if they split.

However not all is lost with scarce or valuable cases if you do get some neck splits, I have devised a method to successfully silver solder splits in several of my 404 Jeffery cases that split when I got a bit lazy with annealing or in the case of my early Kynoch factory ammo where some split the neck when first fired. Have even soldered a split from neck to mouth on one case.
After annealing and polishing the repaired cases it is near impossible to see the repair and I carry on sizing and using them for cast bullet loads trying to remember to anneal them every second firing.


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Daryl_S
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: eagle27]
      #351717 - 25/03/21 05:42 AM

I found you can actually make brass out of .300 Winchester magnum brass, or .338 Win. Mag. by necking up to hold a bullet and turning the belt diameter down to the case base & trimming to length. The rim, of course, at .532" is undersized, but my rifle extracted them. They need to be sized before being loaded, in order to position the shoulder appropriately for proper headspace.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: Daryl_S]
      #351722 - 25/03/21 06:39 AM

yes I know this but it works only in mauser 71 actions. had to make some ammo for an old combination hammergun - 16 ga shotgun barrel and a special 11,15x54R rifle barrel. was simply a 60 mm case cut down to 54 mm, there are trillions of different wildcats bases on the 11 mm mauser case.
first I made brass from cheap 300 win mag. was simple because you cut it under the 300 win mag shoulder so there is no need to open this up. ammo don't work because the extractor of the combination gun was not taking the much smaller rim. the M 71 extractor works different and grab behind.
I have some 300 win mag brass here, its anealed and will make a black powder fireform load. open up the neck on this case is pain in the ass. I know it from making a lot of 300 11,2x60 schüler cases from 300 win mag.
26 work steps with each cases and a lot of them were for open up the neck.
but I lost only 10 of the 300, thinking this was not bad.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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skeet2atlow8
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: lancaster]
      #351936 - 01/04/21 11:03 AM

I have had good results in a .452 barrel using Hornady 300gr XTP’s and a nitro for black load using 4198. It’s been accurate and repeatable in a single shot break-open hammer gun.

--------------------
Skeeter


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Daryl_S
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Re: CIL 43 mauser brass [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #351943 - 01/04/21 01:04 PM

Those pistol 300gr. should work well in a .452" groove diameter bl. Nice to have a choice, Speer 300gr. and 260gr. as well, Sierra and Hornady.
I shot a bear in the face with a Speer 260gr..451" at about 5 yards with a .45 Colt Trapper. The bullet was loaded to 1,960 fps. Killed him, but didn't exit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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