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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Gettysburg
Single Action for self defense ?
      #351827 - 29/03/21 01:40 AM

Would you / Do you / Sometimes? Working in a gunshop, we're getting a lot of new handgun buyers now. Happily Im in a state that issues carry permits. Sadly many of the buyers barely know which end the bullets come out. We recommend training and provide basic instruction at the time of the sale. Not all buyers want to carry, many just want "something for home". Combine all that with a limited inventory and in some cases limited strength/arthritis; Oh and lets not forget limited budget.

I frequently find myself suggesting a Single Action. We have been able to stock the Ruger Wrangler (22LR six shot revolver). They typically sell for well under $200. That fits the budget, minimal recoil, easy to use role. Yes it does require cocking the hammer to fire and it is slow to reload. In one case a couple bought two, so they wouldnt have any trouble using the other gun.

With all that in mind I started wondering if Single Actions are "still" a good option for self defense? My thinking is that "It depends". It depends on your mindset. Are you willing to understand the limits and positives of the gun(s). It depends on your "threat". If your threat involves likely multiple armed attackers, then maybe not BUT if you can pretty much bet on a low level single attacker, then maybe so. It also depends if your "attacker" has 4 legs. Quite a few of our customers, either live on a rural property or frequently visit their home in "the mountains" where they hike/bike and walk the dog in the woods. We have a fair number of Black Bears and even few reports of Mountain Lions. Admittedly actual attacks are very few; but we do have folks worried about them.

Working in the shop I can carry pretty much whatever I want and change from day to day. One day it might be a G17, another it might be a Sig P365; and on a few it might be a Ruger Vaquero (some days its a couple). I started carrying the Single Action(s) as a demonstration to the customers that BIG guns can be concealed TOO! OK, the 5 1/2" is a bit of a wardrobe conundrum but it can be done with a simple vest. Although it is easier with a shorter (3 1/2 inch) and a second gun is just as easy.

My guns are 45LC but thats just because they are what I have. They could be 38s or 44s or even 22s (although Id prefer 22mag for any kind of defense).

Ive had customers actually choose a Single Action over a DA/SA revolver because the heavy DA trigger pull of the DA stroke made them "want" to just use the SA so they thought they might as well stick with a Single Action only.

Im reminded of an instructor who told me that the loudest noise in a gunfight was the click of and empty/jammed gun AND that the fastest reload was a second gun....

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85lc
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #351833 - 29/03/21 04:22 AM

I am certainly not an expert on self defense.

I don't think a pistol is a great self defense weapon unless someone spends sufficient time training and keeps the training up. Most people that I have trained start off having difficulty hitting a man size target at 7 yds.

The problem is aggravated by shooting small, easy to carry, pistols. Add stress, and accuracy goes way down.

On gun selection, a full size, loaded semiauto is easier in that one just pulls the trigger and plastic guns (Glocks etc) absorb some of the recoil. A DA revolver in 38 is doable in that, again, it is just pulling the trigger A SA requires more training, remembering under stress to cock the hammer.

A 38 with proper bullets can be effective. A 22 is probably more effective than a thrown vase but, unlike in Hollywood, not many people (or animals) when charged with adrenaline, stop fighting with a not much more.

Again, whatever handgun one selects, they need to practice, practice, practice.

Several people I have talked with recommend a 20 ga shotgun which is probably easier to shoot at 7 yds but again, good shooting requires training and practice.

Poor or lack or practice reminds me of a gun fight in La Casa del Los Marinos in the early 1960. Sailors from two warring nations (Greek and Turkey) met and a gun fight erupted. Police reported that over 50 shots were fired but nobody was hit.

Those are my thoughts.

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RB


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EDELWEISS
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: 85lc]
      #351835 - 29/03/21 05:15 AM



Yep good thoughts, I have just a few clarifications.

Handguns "work" because they are easy to carry, so they will be carried more than let at home. Likewise handguns can be more easily stored (accessible) than a shotgun. I think shotguns are great "combat" weapons for someone who commits to training with them but Ive never bought into them as home defense weapons for someone who doesnt commit to that same level of training. Shotguns have a few vastly overstated selling points. First is the "you dont have to aim" pitch. Ive seen too many cops fail to qualify because they MISSED targets at room distance targets. Then theres the use "Birdshot" because it has more pellets, story. Well yes it does but again a room distances the spread is maybe saucer size. Thats hardly a "you cant miss" solution especially under stress and limited training. Birdshot also has the liability of low penetration. Yes it does create a nasty looking wound but no pellets go deep enough to hit a vital organ. Maybe it stops an attacker or maybe not. My favorite "selling point" is the racking noise will scare them off. Now maybe it will but in my world that noise is a target indicator. Once you accept that there are different "classes" of criminals and understand that the ones who are willing to break into a home with people inside, then maybe youll accept that the best noise the bad guy should hear is his buddy collapsing after being shot. No warning, No hoping youll scare them away. The length of a shotgun is alo a liability in the close confines of a home. Its also virtually impossible to use at grappling distance and its length makes it easier to "leverage" out of the users hands than a small handgun (we could do a whole thread on that)

No a 22lr or magnum isnt my first second or third choice for anything beyond turning loud noises into smiles on the range with the kids BUT it is better than a shape stick and harsh language. Its also pushing the limits on what some folks can handle.

As for an automatic is easier to just pull the trigger and a single action means having to remember to cock the hammer, thats absolutely correct. An automatic might mean having to remember the flip off the safety that a single action doesnt. An automatic also means the possibility of a jam, though admittedly very slight but amplified with a limp wristed hold which increases with a limited trained and weaker user. The big negative of a single action is capacity and slow (no reload).

Ultimately single action guns arent the newest designs and have been overshadowed by newer guns. They certainly arent my first choice for a high threat environment but in the proper context and within the limits of cost and and user ability, maybe?

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85lc
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #351836 - 29/03/21 05:55 AM

I agree about the need to train with a shotgun and that the pattern at 15 to 20 feet is the size of a small plate. Aiming is required. Shotguns made sense in that two hands are used (facilitates accurate shooting), and they don't over penetrate like a rifle. More knowledgeable people (compared to me) recommend bird shot merely because it doesn't over penetrate.

If someone used a semi-auto shotgun, I would recommend a gas system as opposed to an inertia system. I have seen a 20 ga Benelli fail to reload when loosely held. Other people recommend pumps as they are more reliable.

However, whatever gun selected, training and repeated practice is very important.

The training needs to address also address legally when a gun should be used. I guess that in today's society, also having a great lawyer to keep one out of jail after an altercation is also important.

--------------------
RB


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DarylS
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: 85lc]
      #351837 - 29/03/21 06:46 AM

DA revolvers are about the safest, due to the long trigger pull. Shooting one accurately in DA mode, requires a lot of practice and better yet, instruction.
For someone with training or a lot of practice, the SA revolver is easiest to shoot accurately, of the revolvers.
SA pistols, require more practice for safe use, imho.

I am a proponent of DA revolvers for self defense.

The classes I ran for my fellow worker's wives on handgun shooting showed every one of them could easily stay inside the 8 ring on a B27 target
at 7M the first shooting session with the K.22 S&W's we had, shooting double action. By the second day, they were doing that at 15M with the .38's,
double action.
2 of them took up handgun shooting at the local R&G Club range, one with a S&W Model 19 and the other one with a 9mm Browning, guns they bought
for themselves.

The 9mm gal's husband, the Jail's Sociologist, said to me : "Dammit Daryl, now I have to buy a damn gun & join the gun club if I want to see my wife
on the weekends."

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: DarylS]
      #351841 - 29/03/21 08:25 AM

Training training training That says it all

Many of our new customers never touched a gun before comin in the shop. More than a few said they were life long democrats and still were but they felt that they needed a gun. One even said she hated guns because her sister had been killed with a gun. I didnt try to talk her out of her position. I just listened while she said was scared and gave her a few minutes to come to terms with her situation. She finally chose a Wrangler, because she said it didnt look like a bad gun???

Just wanted to add that training has been hard because of the ammo shortage. Dry fire is a great to preserve skills but its not best for primary training

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If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (29/03/21 08:29 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #351847 - 29/03/21 01:14 PM

I hear ya. Training is paramount, except, it seems with black powder handguns. I've seen some pretty good shots at rendezvous on the pistol course, who had ZERO training. We always beat them, but that's to be expected. My bro had notched the right grip of his 1875 Remington every year he won. The first year I entered was the first year he's lost. LOL - he loaned me his Ruger Bisley .45 Colt & also donated the BP ammo, 35gr. 3F GOEX and 250gr. SWC. That was the first year he lost 1st place in the 8th year of the contest, so there is a blank space on the grip between that one, and the 9th year which he won. I shot my Blackhawk .357 with .38's, w/150gr. and 13gr. 3F. I lost that one.
As far as a self defense handgun, we're behind the 8 ball. No such animal here. I do have swords, though. Big Knife.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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szihn
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: DarylS]
      #353737 - 26/05/21 12:26 AM

We are all devotees of the shooting sports and we all love guns. It's natural for us all to focus on guns because it a passion we all share.

BUT, gunfighting is about 98% about knowing about fighting and about 2% about the gun.
The times a good fighter wants more rounds in the gun and faster reloads are only those times when he has more enemies than he can handle with what is in the gun.

Choosing a gun to go into the fight, we always choose the one that gives us the best advantages we can. As a country degenerates into a criminal, godless society, we see the need more and more for "military type" weapons because it's far more common to deal with larger numbers of enemies. See Brizil, South Africa as just 2 of many examples. The USA is heading in that direction today for the exact same reasons. Hopefully patriotic American will wake up soon and reverse it, but that will not happen without violence of the threat of violence. As we have just seen, voting doesn't matter at all.

So to answer the OPs question about a SA being OK for self-defense......Sure it is, IF YOU ARE SKILLED ENOUGH. But we can't foresee the future of every minute of our lives. If you were to get into a fight with 8 men at one time a Glock can hold more ammo than a SA revolver but it begs the question, can you beat 8 men if those 8 have any degree of training at all, no matter what you are armed with? if you can foresee a fight coming why on earth would you choose ANY handgun? Take that time to pick up a rifle!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you win in a fight with 8 armed enemies when they have autos and you have a SA revolver? Believe it or not the answer can be "yes" but that depends on the mindset of the 8 and the mindset of the 1 (you) far more than it depends on the tool in your hand. Good luck can fall to the enemy as much as it can fall to you and in an 8 to 1 fight they have 8 times more chances to get lucky. And when the odds are way off-sides, it may depend on luck (Meaning God's protection)

We can't create luck, but we CAN create skill.

I was a US Marine way back in the dark days and I was with Force Recon. To those that don't know what that means, I'll just say where we went, we were supposed to be outnumbered and we were supposed to be surrounded, but with enough training we usually did better then the enemy that surrounded us. There was a time when they really didn't like to try to catch up to us. I apologize if that sounds like bravado, but what I am writing here I know from personal experience, not things I read in some book. And as I told my students for 30 years, "I'm still here"!

So.........how much training are you willing to do? How much time can you afford to train?

I'd venture to say that in my prime, if I had been home and carrying my old Ruger Super Blackhawk, and gotten into a fight with street thugs, I would not give good odds to those thugs. I could shoot birds out of the air with handguns when I was in my 20s and 30s and I did it many times in front of various witnesses. One of whom is a friend of Tinker on this forum.

So what is the truth? Well, if you can't shoot well UNDER PRESSURE the whole fight fall back to who gets lucky, them or you. If you can shoot well and understand movement in battle you are very likely to win, even if they have "better" guns, IF YOU ARE THE BETTER MAN.

Does that mean I would recommend a SA as a combat gun? Not usually! But I have known 2 students that shot their single actions far better than they shot any other handguns, and because of that fact, in those cases I tell those students to carry what they shoot the best. It's 98% about the fighter and 2% about what he fights with.
My best advice is to train with a gun that holds more ammo and is faster to reload, but if you shoot a SA better, carry that until you are as good or better with the "better gun". Better fighter with "less gun" is more dangerous then a great gun used by a poor fighter.


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DarylS
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: szihn]
      #353739 - 26/05/21 01:30 AM

Well written, Steve.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: szihn]
      #353740 - 26/05/21 02:12 AM

Quote:

... One of whom is a friend of Tinker on this forum.






Oh yes.
That glorious bastard.

He says you're welcome for she snow shoveling, by the way




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DoubleD
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: tinker]
      #353742 - 26/05/21 03:59 AM

All the previous post are well written and carefully thought out, but also partially wrong.

In the 80's I operated a full service Gunstore inside a large Sporting Goods Store.

I also have 34 year of Law enforcement with 16 years on the street, the rest on the border.

I use to teach the old NRA course Home firearms safety. The audience was the school kids and the ladies club---politically correct back then.

Every thing you guys wrote is spot on for the average mildly motivated Joe with minimal interest is firearm's who is willing/wanting to put the effort into it.


But there is another group of customers/victims I dealt with for who every thing that you guys wrote is meaning less. These are the people who just want a gun for protection.

They come in buy a gun and box of ammo. They may take the gun to the range one time, or go shoot it in the back yard.

They will the load the gun and put it nightstand drawer and there it sits for 15-20 years until they need it or burglar steals it. They will not touch it in the mean time. They will not be skilled in the use or operation. They will need the gun and pull it out of the drawer try to figure out how to make it work. They will be scared and nervous not know what to do.

These people need to do all the things you guys are talking about, and never will.

I would talk to them and try to guide them towards training. But what do you do with a Vet who was in the service 40 years ago and work in Motor-T and only ever fired a 1911 for fam fire at ITR. And qualified once a year for the 4 years with his Garand and has not touch a gun since he was discharged?

I would encourage them to practice and get training and knew they wouldn't.

And if they asked I would point then to the simplest to operate handgun-point and shoot, point and pull the trigger. No levers to flip, nothing to cock just pull the trigger-then it was a double action revolver carried in a holster..

Today it would be DA only semiauto. My wife has no interest in learning the defensive pistol skill. But she does shoot her pistols several times a year. She can't load a magazine or rack a slide. She won't practice these skills. But she can pick up her Glock 43, pull the Boraii holster off and put 6 round center of mass at 5 yards anywhere in this house.

The K.I.S.S. principle definitely applies to these people.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (26/05/21 10:33 PM)


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: DoubleD]
      #353746 - 26/05/21 10:33 AM

Yes I agree with what you guys are saying. In my mind its all about Threat Assessment. When Im travelling in what I would call the Green Zone, Im quite happy with a SAA (or frequently two). Of course the Green Zone can turn RED anytime but usually theres "some" warning and its typically broadcast on the local news.

On Threat RED days it might be a modern handgun with a 20+ round mag and a couple spares; but if things get that bad, there are much better options, and one of those options is to hunker down behind a beltfed...

Our shop has never been robbed. I know some in places like Baltimore that have. In that event it comes down to how well motivated the suspects are, how well they are trained, and how well they are armed.

Still when its over it would be cool to look at your smoking six gun and say, "Damn that was cool". Then wonder if youve got time to carve a notch before the PD confiscates your gun for the coroners inquiry. Its either that or taking ears but that sorta looks bad on the 6 o'clock news???

--------------------
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szihn
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #353749 - 26/05/21 02:42 PM

DoubleD is unfortunately correct about a segment of the gun-owning population. They buy a gun for "protection" and never learn anything about how to protect themselves. Sure, it's still better than being unarmed, but at times it's not as much better as they seem to think it is.
As the saying goes, buying a gun no more turns you into a gunfighter then buying a guitar will turn you into a rock star. For those that do not train and want a gun in the house for that bad moment in life, I ALWAYS tell them to get a long arm. A shotgun is they can handle the recoil or even a Ruger 10/22 is far better for those that are untrained than a handgun.

Oh ----- and Tinker..........DQ's moniker for me is "that Magnificent Bastard". Very few are inside that circle, so it's obvious he's spoken to you a bit.

Tell him Hello for me, but also tell him I would not want to interrupt his unspeakably rapturous joy in shoveling the snow himself.

( I get enough snow here to keep me busy. Bank on that.)


DQ and come visit me in the summer and cause it to snow . It's his fault!


I can't prove it, but I just KNOW it is!

Edited by szihn (26/05/21 03:03 PM)


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: szihn]
      #353755 - 26/05/21 09:36 PM

I have to disagree with the long arm statement, at least in the post Covid buying phase. Of the folks we're talking about, a good percentage of them had trouble with a DA trigger pull, let alone holding up a 12 ga shotgun AND thats not even discussing the recoil.

ALSO lets not forget the availability issues of guns in the last 2 years. IDK about your shops; but we havent been able to actually order guns since February 2020. So its no longer a "I want this" its a "this is what we have--do you want it or not and dont wait too long cause somebody else will take it"

So back to the SAA, theres no DA trigger, no cocked/locked, nothing but Cock and go bang! For those folks is "dead" simple. Give'em a Ruger Wrangler of a Heritage Rough Rider and they are at least armed. Hand'em a pamphlet for training, tell them which end the bullet comes out cause you know they wont "waste $$$" on training and tell'em to aim for the face the move on to the next democrat who tells you they dont like guns but are afraid of defunding the police.

A rifle is fine IF they know what they are doing BUT if these guys arent taking shooting courses then they certainly arent taking "shoot and move tactical" classes. So when they go roaming around the house looking for "that noise", can they really maneuver with that 10-22 without getting it snatched from them?

BUT ultimately it comes down to whats available and what they can afford AND if theyre idiot neighbor told them to get a tactical shotgun cuz the racking noise will scare the bad guys away. Dear GOD, whoever said that needs to be whipped in the town square.

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szihn
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #353761 - 27/05/21 12:18 AM

"A rifle is fine IF they know what they are doing BUT if these guys arent taking shooting courses then they certainly arent taking "shoot and move tactical" classes. So when they go roaming around the house looking for "that noise", can they really maneuver with that 10-22 without getting it snatched from them?"

OK, I would agree, but only in context. But the other side of the coin asks 2 questions:

#1. What valid argument can be offered about one type of firearm over any other is someone doesn't "know what they are doing"?

And #2 is there anyone that believes someone "looking for that noise" with a handgun is going to be more effective than someone looking for that noise with a rifle?

As a former Military man with a lot of experience in several different countries in 3 continent's I can assure you no nation and no war-lord ever arms it's fighters with handguns when they can get long arms. There is a reason for that. Even the invention and issue of the M1 Carbine in WW2 was because of the very reason I am pointing out here. The little carbine was not a super "man stopper" but it was FAR easier to make hits with even in urban combat, room to room, than the 45 auto pistol. That's with some training. Would you think that with NO training the pistol would be easier or more effective?

Having been an adviser and an instructor for troops and civilian populations (A continuation of the "Hearts and minds" from the Vietnam years and following) I have NEVER seen even one student, from the 100% untrained and having never touched a firearm in their life, all the way to full time professional soldiers and police, who could make hits on an average with ANY handgun better then they could with an AK, AR FAL G3 or for that matter, a 10-22 Ruger, a marlin M60 a CZ 22 auto rifle or a Winchester M94 in 30-30. Not even one!

ALL militaries issue rifle instead of handguns, including to those troops who's MOS is is 100% based on dynamic entry and/or holding secure rooms against enemy incursions. That's 100% There is a GOOD reason why.

So I do agree with you about those that are 100% untrained, and 100% set in their minds not to train. And there are a LOT of them.

But that is 100% NOT a discussion about guns. That's about people. And having trained probably 2500 people that never touched a gun in their lives until I was sent to them, again I can assure you that with 3 hours of introduction and basic training ALL of the were a LOT better with rifle then they were with handguns, and in 40+ years I have never seen even one exception to that.

I was once an extremely good hand-gunner. I shot live birds out of the air with revolvers and I did it in front of many witnesses many times, and yet at my peak I could do better with a rifle then a handgun. Same with every top shooter I ever met. Same with every average shooter, and same with every "green-horn" untrained shooter.

Dead people don't fight at all. Making the first hit is the most important thing, and the tool that is easiest to do that with is a long-arm.

Can a long-arm be taken from the defender? Yeah,--- if the enemy is well trained, but so can a knife. A knife is the hardest and MOST dangerous weapon you can try to take from an enemy at wrestling distances, but I still don't recommend knives as the primary weapon (I bet you don't either) because the better weapon (a short rifle or shotgun) make is a LOT harder and a LOT more dangerous to get that close without getting killed or severely wounded. If getting the weapon "taken away" was a real consideration, a knife in each hand would be the most recommended way to arm oneself. Such a recommendation is as ridiculous as it sounds because it ONLY becomes a force to be reckoned with when an enemy is at touching distance, and also doesn't have any weapons himself. Not all that likely, is it?

So the logic of a long-arm being "too easy to take away from the defender" (wanna try it if failing means certain death and the one with the long arm is going to shoot you the second he sees you?) falls down when you understand that in the last 200 years we have plenty of wars and degenerations of civil societies to study and analyze, and not once can we find a place or time where those who die if they loose would give up a rifle to get a handgun, with the exceptions of tunnel rats and those who engage in life and death struggles at bad-breath range. Considering the OP was asking about small women, and we speak of very old and weak people in this thread, the point of the discussion is NOT about the deadliest warriors for "zero inch range combat".

Dead enemies don't fight at all. Only hits count and deadly hits count the most.

As far as the SA revolvers go, I do agree that they are the easiest handgun to learn to make hits with for the small, and the weak (actually for the big and strong too) not just because there is not stiff trigger pull, but because the grip shape doesn't' hurt the hand of most small people and weak people. If a person is bothered by recoil even from a standard frame DA 38 special and a 4" barrel, if that is painful to them, put a Ruger 357 Black Hawk in their hand loaded with the same ammo and suddenly they are not hurt at all, and they start to enjoy shooting. Weather they think of it as training or not, shooting because you enjoys it IS training. Not the high-speed low-drag Military or police training we usually associate with the word, but someone learning how to shoot well is always a good step in the right direction. The BIG step is the decision and mental attitude training that comes from someone that can tell you how it is to have to kill people in defense of your life, and that is about mindset.
I teach students that the GUN IS NOT THE WEAPON! IT'S JUST A TOOL. YOU ARE THE WEAPON!!!!

Any gun will do if you can and will do the job with the gun.

So the idea that there is a segment of the gun owning population out there that is 100% incompetent is true. And until they admit they are incompetent and need training there is nothing you or I can do for them. The ONLY thing I ever learned, starting at the end of the Vietnam era to this vary day, about those that can't and/or wont train at all is to tell them to get a rifle or shotgun.

I place their chances at winning a life and death fight at only about 20 percent if they have a handgun, and about double that if they have a rifle or shotgun. Most "successful use" of firearms by citizens against criminal is because the criminal won't risk being shot if he has another choice. Hit one even "around the edges" and they know you WILL shoot (again) and you WILL kill them if you are giving a better chance. So they usually decide to not give you another chance.

Most civilians win because the criminals decided to quit. If the criminal really want to kill a rank novice armed with a handgun the novice has about a 20% chance, and probably a 40% chance with one armed with a shotgun or rifle. In some cases the criminal is also killed or wounded, but that won't help the dead good-guy.

But if you want to get your odds up to the high 80% or better, it's about training, not tools.

A kid who shoots quail with a shotgun is not "trained for combat", but if such a 12 year old decided to fire his shotgun at a bad-guy it's VERY likely the bad guy is going to get hit. No SEAL or Ranger training here, but the kid is trained to shoot well. If you give him the training of his mind to know when to shoot, such a 90 pound 12 year old girl is a VERY deadly enemy to the 275 pound bad-guy armed with a pistol or knife who is trying to break in. If that shotgun, just a 410, loaded with lead #4s is used by someone who has skill and has the mindset to kill you, the bad guy is is REAL danger of being very, very dead in the next few seconds. When my adopted daughter was 14 she could hit running rabbits with a 30-30 Winchester. She was cool under pressure and I thought her about fighting from the time she was 11. I would bet any amount of money that if she had 2 seconds to prepare for a home invader when she was 14 years old, that it would be a very very very lucky bad guy that didn't end up dead in about the next 2 seconds after she got that initial 2 second warning. She was 14 then, 89 pounds and was probably one of the last people in the town a criminal should try to break in on. She was not mouthy and would not speak of it to anyone but me and her mom but I know what she could do, and I know what she WOULD do if she was pushed into a corner. Jack rabbits running away at 35 MPH, dodging and jumping around brush usually died when she fired. I'd bet a man moving toward her (a big target and getting bigger) at 4 MPH would not have a good day, and a 30-30 deer killer placed in the middle of him is not going to make him healthier or faster.

Fighters FIGHT!
Guns are simply tools.

Use the tool you can use the best. Have the correct mindset and you win in the large majority of the fights. If you don't have the best tool, FIGHT BETTER then your enemy with any tool you can. But if you have the correct attitude and can control your fear you win in probably 19 times out of 20.

The 20th.................. Well sometimes it's God's timing to take you home. No training and no gun is 100%. You can't defeat bad luck. But you can lean the odds heavily in your favor by having the correct mindset and vary often that is a few hours of shooting and about 20 hours of schooling about what fighting is, what it's not, when to do it and the reasons why. What is the "go switch" or "Green Light" and how to recognize and realize it, AND NOT HESITATE WHEN YOU SEE IT!

That's training!

Edited by szihn (27/05/21 12:29 AM)


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: Single Action for self defense ? [Re: szihn]
      #353788 - 27/05/21 09:39 AM

As a former soldier (MP) and civilian cop and Bodyguard as well as a firearms/tactics instructor I can tell you that a rifle may be great in a military context but not so much in a civilian world, in fact a rifle is expressly forbidden in an active shooter role for schools. OK we can bring a rifle along but not make entries into the classrooms. I do take exception with that policy but i understand it especially when there are more friendlies then bad guys in a confined space AND when a handgun is the primary weapon making it much more familiar.

As a soldier Ive carried a L1A1, a G3, and a M16, along with a few SMGs. By far the L1A1 is the longest, and yes it can be maneuvered in a doorway/room but not nearly so easily as a handgun. Now factor in an untrained homeowner leading the way with the barrel of his rifle, likely held at the hip.

Militaries issue rifles because they expect their soldiers to fight soldiers. Civilians not so much, Untrained civilians even less. Weaker civilians unused to recoil or the weight of rifle lesser so.

Brother you might want a rifle, Id take a SMG and if I couldnt have that Id take a Glock with a RMR and a 30 rnd mag; but if I was arming somebody's grandmother who could rack the slide or was recoil shy, then it might be a 38 or even 22 SAA because they can cock it and pull the trigger.

Now Id tell her to get training but know that she wouldnt and Id tell her to call 911 and hunker down behind her locked bedroom door and wait for the PD.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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