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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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paradox_
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Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 645
Loc: Australia
British Sequoia Mannlicher ?
      #351380 - 13/03/21 12:47 PM

I Found this example a few years ago looking for a new home.
The only example I’ve seen marked 1924 and in take down form. It is of course chambered in 3006.
It was proofed in 1928.
The rifle can be described as in Good overall condition.
The Serial number 636 does appear to be in the dedicated number range for Sequoia rifles and at the higher end of those currently known It Appears retailed by CB Vaughan of London, (English Market), who was in fact a consistent RETAILER of Mannlicher rifles.
I’m guessing its left over stock from the failed Sequoia order and managed to escape any remarking. It does NOT have the Sequoia reference on the barrel, but does have the typical multi leaf folding sight.
Something of interest (or not) is the front TD fastener. In place of the spring-loaded pin it has a threaded screw. My first reaction is to say that’s an aftermarket replacement for a lost pin.
The offside of the pin escthochoen is threaded to take the screw.
Whoever made it, factory or otherwise knew what they were doing. Further there were two spares in its case along with a pull through.
Factory, or (English) Gun maker??

If we consider Sequoia rifles to be relatively rare, then I’m tempted to think this example be may quite uncommon.
If anyone has a 1924 in this format, or knows of one please let me know, I’m keen to compare notes on this rather different English Model.

Best
Eric

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paradox_
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Reged: 12/05/07
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: paradox_]
      #351392 - 15/03/21 11:47 AM

Further, it also has the forward positioned cartridge retainer ring and more " Fuller" shaped forend referenced by Axel in a previous post.
Single trigger and Horn buttplate.

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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: paradox_]
      #351411 - 15/03/21 11:12 PM

Hi
Axel might give more light on the rareness of this model...

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France
Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #351445 - 16/03/21 07:49 PM

Paradox, congratulations on your rare and much desirable rifle about which I will make the following comments:
- A real crossbred mounted on a M.1924 action possibly/probably manufactured for the Sequoia contract but never exported to the US and reaching market at a later date; without the M.1924 marking it would be considered a M.1925 High Velocity model. The use of such in-stock parts was quite common in those days and we all have in mind Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles still marked Osterreichische Waffenfabrikgesellschaft while being manufactured in the post-1926 era or Mauser ones still mentioning Waffenfabrik Mauser while being issued by Mauserwerke AG.
- The "typical multi-leaf folding sight" of your rifle is not Sequoia-specific; it is in fact a rear sight option offered to clients on all high-velocity models; Rothhammer has posted many old Stoeger catalogs’ pages referring to these options. Referring to my own two High Velocity models (both posted on the Forum), the 9,3x62 (exported to Transvaal/South Africa) sports a similar express-type rear sight type while the 7x64 (remained in Austria) is fitted with a classic continental European one (one fixed leaf and one folding one).
- The linking/fastening pin is an interesting and wise concept; I had thought (as many of us probably did) of something similar when I was trying years ago to replace a missing pin, but found an original one in the end.
Anyway, congratulations again on your rare and desirable rifle!
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: Louis]
      #351453 - 17/03/21 04:17 AM

Quote:


- The "typical multi-leaf folding sight" of your rifle is not Sequoia-specific; it is in fact a rear sight option offered to clients on all high-velocity models; Rothhammer has posted many old Stoeger catalogs’ pages referring to these options.






High Velocity', Stoeger 1939



Steyr, 1936


Actually, what Paradox wrote was; "It does NOT have the Sequoia reference on the barrel, but does have the typical multi leaf folding sight."

As you've pointed out, however, the three leaf 'express sight' is more typical of the 'M1925' or 'High Velocity' than of the M1924 which are often found the two leaf sight.


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paradox_
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #351473 - 17/03/21 05:44 PM

Louis, you are correct the rear sight was not exclusive to the Sequoia order.
Secondary question was every Sequoia fitted with this sight, as I have a recollection of seeing an image of one marked and numbered Sequoia example with the Tangent option??
The above rifle certainly might be considered just another "1925", except for the fore wood shape and the postion of the magazine
retaining ring...not tp mention the 1924 marking.
Would be interesting to know if your 9.3 High Velocity Model has the " Sequoia" forward set retainer, when next you have a chance to look.
How common are 1924 Models that were not part of the Sequoia order??
How did the " 1925"/" High Velocity" Model designation come about?...catalogue description??

Thank you Rothhammer for the sight and Model info.

--------------------
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Rothhammer1
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: paradox_]
      #351500 - 18/03/21 07:21 AM

Quote:


How did the " 1925"/" High Velocity" Model designation come about?...catalogue description??








I believe 'High Velocity' to be a construct of Stoeger and their marketing department, just as they did not use the M____ designations for MS and had their own model numbers for Mauser varieties.

I have long assumed that 'M1925' is an invention of collectors and resellers to logically 'fill the gap' between M1924 and M1950.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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paradox_
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #351516 - 18/03/21 07:51 PM

I sssumed as much, intersting the factory chose not to provide a distinct model designation, particulaylin light of them so deligently " labelling " previous Models. I certainly have always referred to that " gap" as 1925, but dont know why.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: paradox_]
      #351524 - 19/03/21 04:06 AM

636 is the highest serial number on a M.1924 marked Mannlicher - Schoenauer I have seen yet. To me, it was special order / custom rifle built on a left-over action and barrel. Steyr was always willing to concoct special rifles with non – catalogued features to the customer’s wishes.
The “High Velocity” monicker was not invented by Stoeger. It appears in the 1929 english language catalog of the Steyr – Werke AG. In contemporary Austrian German they called it “Hochrasanz – Repetierstutzen”, as did Burgsmueller, Kreiensen, in their about 1930 catalog. The also 1930 A.Frank, Hamburg, export catalog called it “Hochrasanz – Büchse” in German and “Repeating rifle for high velocity cartridges” in English. “Rasance” was originally a French artillery term for flatness of trajectory, but was used for bullet velocity later. So “Hochrasanz” was used for “High Velocity”. “M.1925” may come from a 1925 Steyr catalog which first mentioned the Hochrasanz – Stutzen. It was first offered in 7x64, 7.62x63 = .30-06 and 8x60 Magnum (S) only. By 1935 7x57, 9.3x62 and 10.75x68 were added to the caliber options. Apparently there were plenty of unloved (in Europe) M1924 .30-06 parts still available as this chambering was offered at a 10% discount at first.

The switchover from “Made in Austria” to “Made in Germany” and from the Austriaan to German proofmarks was not immediately on March 12, 1938, the day of the “Anschluss”. There were still guns and parts in stock with the Austria marking. And the proofhouses Vienna, Ferlach, Weipert and Prague continued to use their old stamps until spring 1940, when the new proof law and new proofmarks became mandatory for all “Grossdeutschland”.


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themauserkid
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Reged: 21/06/15
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: kuduae]
      #351525 - 19/03/21 05:10 AM

Great info Axel, thanks for posting. I’d love to find a cased takedown or a Sequoia one day, such beautiful rifles. Great example OP!

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: kuduae]
      #351530 - 19/03/21 06:34 AM

Quote:



The “High Velocity” monicker was not invented by Stoeger. It appears in the 1929 english language catalog of the Steyr – Werke AG. In contemporary Austrian German they called it “Hochrasanz – Repetierstutzen”, as did Burgsmueller, Kreiensen, in their about 1930 catalog. The also 1930 A.Frank, Hamburg, export catalog called it “Hochrasanz – Büchse” in German and “Repeating rifle for high velocity cartridges” in English. “Rasance” was originally a French artillery term for flatness of trajectory, but was used for bullet velocity later. So “Hochrasanz” was used for “High Velocity”.






Thank you for that, Herr Eichendorff.

I have long been unsure whether or not Stoeger actually had devised the 'High Velocity' name, and have perpetuated error in that regard.
'Tis better to know than to assume.


Thank you for pointing out that Steyr had listed the 'High Velocity' in an English Language 1929 catalogue, prior to Stoeger having listed same.

Though the Stoeger catalog of 1931 offered MS in "The U.S. Cartridge of 1906" (.30-'06), it does not list it by the M1924 designation (as they also did not with the M1903, 1905, 1908, 1910) and does not yet list the 'High Velocity' offerings.


Stoeger, 1931



Paradox - If yours turns out to be the highest numbered M1924 known, I'll suggest a title for you to write about it - 'The Last Sequoia' .


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Rustyzipper
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #351534 - 19/03/21 11:52 AM

It is quite fun to see these various models and to see the knowledge base on them. I am quite lucky to have a couple of examples of the Steyr M/S. Thanks and Be Well, Rustyzipper.

--------------------
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paradox_
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Reged: 12/05/07
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: Rustyzipper]
      #351579 - 20/03/21 06:59 PM

'The last Sequoia" has a nice ring about it.....however

Ive have discovered serial number #847 from an image on the net.

Best

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Loc: middle of Germany
Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: paradox_]
      #351647 - 23/03/21 04:42 AM

Quote:

Though the Stoeger catalog of 1931 offered MS in "The U.S. Cartridge of 1906" (.30-'06), it does not list it by the M1924 designation (as they also did not the M1903, 1905, 1908, 1910) and does not yet list the 'High Velocity' offerings.



By 1931 Stoeger was not alone in not listing Mannlicher – Schoenauer model numbers. A 1914 catalog by Franz Sodia, Ferlach, Austria, listed the M-Sch options by caliber and models 1903 to 10. All post-WW1 catalogs, including the 1929 Steyr one, listed them by caliber only, without mentioning the model dates.
Of course Stoeger offered the High velocity model in .30-06 only. Why offer anything no one is likely to buy? Up to the 1970s there was still a metric – imperial “language barrier”. Just as Americans like Keith or Brits like Taylor did not understand metric numbers like mm, g, m/s and mkg, Germans usually have no idea about inch, gr, fps and footpounds. So a 7x64 Brenneke or 8x60 “Versailles treaty cartridge” were just as unknown in English speaking countries as .318 W-R or .270 Winchester were in continental Europe.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: British Sequoia Mannlicher ? [Re: kuduae]
      #351698 - 24/03/21 03:56 PM

Quote:


Of course Stoeger offered the High velocity model in .30-06 only. Why offer anything no one is likely to buy?




In 1931 Stoeger offered the MS 'High Velocity' in "the U.S. 1906 Cartridge" as well as previous models in the 6.5X54, 8X56, 9X56, 9.5X57 chamberings.

By 1939, the 'High Velocity' offerings of 7X57, 7X64, 8X60, 9.3X62, and 10.75X68 had been added.


Stoeger, 1939

It was Sequoia Importing Co. that had advertised the MS only in .30-'06 chambering.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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