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lancaster
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Oskar Will
      #351200 - 07/03/21 07:40 PM

I had bad luck!leaving the house for a visit and came home with another gun.
came into the house of collector and see it in the corner it was only an old airgun.
but, was the airgun I was looking for two years now.

have a little projekt, working about different guns here and there start liking the old style 19. century airguns with a crank but they are very, very rare today.





















they are undoubtly a german invention but came into the united states right after the civil war. some of the airguns above are sold by german origin gunmaker in the united states than. made there or importet from the suhl area about old connections,


but who was Oskar Will? Oskar Will alias Venus gunworks was located in Zella Sankt Blasii. since 1919 Zella St. Blasii and Mehlis are connected to Zella Mehlis.

google maps shows the situation



in the yellow circle is Mehlis, in the blue circle is Zella St. Blasii and in the red circle is Suhl, all growing together today.

but who was Oskar Will, the 1902 catalog have it all from single shot pistols to drillings and mauser rifles.























http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/will-oscar-ernst-leo-julius-venus-waffenwerk/

but what Will was famous for than were airguns, the old style with a crank lever and than another newer version called "Bügelspanner" or bail spanner(?)









this Bügelspanner was the mercedes of the airguns up two WW 2 and than I came into the play.
the better ones had a walnut stock and checkering but the majority only lacquered beech. the ordinary will go today for 200 -250 euro usualy allways having some issues from the last hundred years.

my new gun was not cheap like this
































the complicated spring is strong but the leather washer is probably dry and don't give enough pressure anymore. the barrel lock is not tight anymore and so the gun goes to a master gunmaker because its not the kind of gun you want to make mistakes.




after passing the smooth barrel this 6,36 mm /.25 caliber airgun pellet measure ,6,35 mm



out of the box it have 6,50 mm




what make the difference in hundreds of euros to any other Will airgun was this stamp





the gun was bought before from a collector in the alsace, the stamp reads as 132. infantry regiment in strasbourg, company number 8, gun number 2

thats the real deal

here another example of a prussian unit marking on a mauser 71 buttplate




11. foot artillerie regiment,ersatz battery 3, gun number 107



the 132. regiment




https://www.flickr.com/photos/die_109er/galleries/72157675985425203/

don't believe this was for recruits, to expensive and to good in shape. maybe a gun for the officer's mess to shoot out who pays for the next beer.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #351208 - 08/03/21 02:01 AM

Wow! That is quite a great bit of “bad luck”. It will be wonderful to get it back into full shooting condition.

“......maybe a gun for the officer's mess to shoot out who pays for the next beer.....”
Now THAT would be way better than mere rolling dice for drinks.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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Louis
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: 3DogMike]
      #351210 - 08/03/21 05:06 AM

Really lucky, nice and rare pick Lancaster; what is according to you the manufacture period of that rifle bearing in mind that the city name Stassburg i. Elsass changed at the end of 1918?
Thank you also for teaching us on Venuswaffenwerke; I noticed a Lancaster pirshbüchse on page 40 of the catalog you posted; what a coincidence!
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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DarylS
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: Louis]
      #351214 - 08/03/21 07:02 AM

That is a marvelous piece of history.
The pellets and darts in the add page, are all available today. At least were just a couple decades ago, for the darts.
I don't know if the darts are still made today or not however, those pellet shapes most certainly are.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: DarylS]
      #351217 - 08/03/21 07:18 AM

louis, against a well mannered french gentleman I would ONLY use the word Strasbourg like I would say Flensborg to a danish gentleman!


the perfect moment is when they thinking "he talks about Strassburg im Elsass" or "he means Flensburg"

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #351218 - 08/03/21 07:30 AM

4,5 mm darts https://www.ebay.de/itm/301963566110?mke...0da753c2c1dc3cd

5,5mmm darts https://www.luftgewehr-shop.com/federbolzen-fuer-luftdruckgewehre-und-luftpistolen-55-mm-25-bolzen

6,35 mm https://www.waffencenter-gotha.de/shop/W...tueck::716.html

believe the modern 6,35 mm darts are to big for the old 6,3mm airguns

I think the old bullet design was called cat slug or cup slug/ cup pellt in english.





its not available anymore, händler&natermann was making them for the 5 mm sheridan airgun but its replaced now with a common diabolo design.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #351220 - 08/03/21 08:07 AM

Lancaster - what terrible luck to have come ac ross this rare gem!
It certainly is in what appears to be almost pristine condition & Yes the build quality is something that all companies should aspire to.....bloody magnificent!
Oskar Will certainly was a craftsman! The "Venus" Drilling would have been a magnificent piece, especially with the underlever so that you could use the pop up peep in the tang, that alone is a work of art by itself.


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: 93x64mm]
      #351385 - 15/03/21 06:25 AM





https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2013/11/original-bugelspanner-part-1/


and also

https://www.pyramydair.com/article/Zimmerstutzen_February_2011/82

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #351387 - 15/03/21 07:01 AM

Quote:





https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2013/11/original-bugelspanner-part-1/


and also

https://www.pyramydair.com/article/Zimmerstutzen_February_2011/82




Wow!
These are some well written & detailed articles, they certainly make some very interesting reading indeed Lancaster!


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: 93x64mm]
      #356239 - 21/08/21 04:58 AM

got it back from the master today, it have a new leather gasket now and the barrel will locked tight again. take modern 6,35 airgun pellets like they come out of the box.





allways five pellets, don't look so but the flat point seems to shoot better than the spitzer



just start to learning how to handle it, its a dandy airgun for sure!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #356897 - 19/09/21 06:46 PM

two small english article about airguns

https://www.gunstar.co.uk/community/advice/airguns/the-25-airgun-calibre

https://www.gunstar.co.uk/community/advice/airguns/hunting-for-airguns

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #356902 - 19/09/21 10:21 PM

Shoots more than well Lancaster!
Glad you got your 'baby' back, now for some fun!


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DarylS
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: 93x64mm]
      #356911 - 20/09/21 02:15 AM

Round nosed pellets are usually more accurate in 'sporting' springers, than-are the flat nosed or spitzer shaped ones, especially past about 10 meters.
Some guns will however, shoot the flat ones well to 20 meters.
Before the covid plandemic, I shot on an indoor range with air rifles & pistols during the winter with a group.
JSB (Czech Republic) & H&N (Germany) pellets are usually the most accurate, with a very wide variety of designs and weighs per calibre.
These makes shoot best in all of my air rifles and pistols.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: DarylS]
      #356913 - 20/09/21 02:35 AM

such a smooth bore vintage airgun is a specialty in itself.
modern airgun pellets are heavier than the old style spitzer bullets this gun was made for



the standard weight of a modern 4,5 mm, 5,5mm and 6,35 mm airgun pellet is the same like a roundball of this size. I shot H&N 6,35 mm pellets in this but they are oversized and some of the energy is used to size them down. I will probably need a sizing die to bring the pellet to the right diameter. in one of the videos above is a special liquid alox for airgun pellets. this could be interesting for me also to get the pellet out of the barrel with less friction.

anyone know what this is?



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #356914 - 20/09/21 04:37 AM

looks like this stuff


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #356915 - 20/09/21 04:49 AM

Both JSB and H&N make "lighter" weight alloy pellets, of the hollow base, round nosed 'waisted'(diabolo) design.

I have never seen this lube, prior to this thread.

Once must be careful with lubes in springer (spring compression) air rifles due to the high heat generated when the air is compressed. Ignition of the oil is a definite possibility.
This is hard on the seal as well as fouling the "then" combustion (compression) chamber.

Both JSB and H&N make "some" of their pellets in multiple diameters of basic .177 and .22calibers, listed on the boxes.

I do not know if they do this with their .25 cal. pellets.

I see 6.3mm is .248". I do not know if THEY make this size, but .250" pellets should easily be sized down.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: DarylS]
      #356916 - 20/09/21 04:55 AM

I do know some shooters spray cleaned (washed) pellets with WD40, however if this is a liquid on the pellets when they are fired, dieseling is the result. (ignition)

A silicone-based lubricant will not diesel.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: DarylS]
      #356917 - 20/09/21 05:25 AM

all the bullets today are heavier than the old spitzer pellets were. the field target shooting create a demand for such heavy pellets. I have shown above the head and base diameter of modern .25 caliber pellets. most vintage airgun shooter size them down to +/- 6,35 mm but my gun is strong enough to size them in the barrel.
no doubt, some energy get lost this way.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #356919 - 20/09/21 09:15 AM

Yes- I understood that from your previous posts.

Have you checked with mould makers? NOE makes pellet moulds
and in .250" size, they have one weighing 22gr. I think that is about the same weight as a pure lead .250" round ball.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/251/250-22-wc-cd1-target-pellet/

Of course, the Hades JSB pellet with tiny nose and long skirt might be the easiest "forming" pellet at 26.54gr. weight.
The JSB Exact King at 25.4gr. is a much shorter pellet with a larger nose/head.

https://www.airgunsource.ca/us/brands/js...ter%5B%5D=22360

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: DarylS]
      #356926 - 21/09/21 05:38 AM

common pellet weigt is 22 grains, same as the roundball have
the old style spitzer bullet weights only 15 grains in 6,3 mm

in german this things were called Spitzkugel = spiky bullet? what do you call them? cat slug/cup slug/ cup pellet?






a 6 cavity mould like for revolver bullets but for this pellet would be nice to have with this gun but I imagine there will be problems because the lead will not flow into such thin hollow base cavitys.

Was not knowing this pellet lube before, just read it in the english airgun article above. if you look for "Napier Power Pellet Lube 25ml Spray Bottle" its also available on amazon but I don't know if its worth the money.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #356931 - 21/09/21 09:54 AM

Thin skirts need high lead heat and a little bit of tin in the mix for better flowing.
If the heat is too high, the tin will burn off more quickly, however I run high heat when casting pure lead balls (or bullets for low vel. BP Sharps loads) and add 1/2" of tin per 20 pounds of really soft X-Ray room sheet lead from walls.
This helps with reducing the amount of dross produced by oxidation.
It also produces high quality, perfectly formed balls and bullets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: DarylS]
      #356946 - 22/09/21 05:30 AM

by accident I see this old american made airgun pellets with a felt in the base what is completly new to me.
probably to tighten an undersized bullet in the barrel













if .21 caliber its maybe for the 5,3 mm airgun
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/904481701

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #356949 - 22/09/21 06:39 AM

Perhaps for self cleaning or lubrication?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: DarylS]
      #356994 - 24/09/21 04:02 AM

google found this https://www.jimmiedeesairguns.com/rifles...d-1876-to-1938/

"On October 25th 1883, Haviland and Gunn filed U.S. Patent 290,230, “Process of Manufacturing Felted Slugs” with Quackenbush named as the assignee. This was three years after the partial buy-out by Quackenbush. I can only assume that Haviland and Gunn had developed their method of manufacturing felted slugs before going their separate ways. Perhaps Quackenbush acquired the machine as part of the sale and decided to protect his financial investment by raising the patent and naming Haviland and Gunn as the inventors. Certainly, the signatures of the inventors would appear to be from the same hand although it is possible that this was often signed on behalf of the inventor by the patent attorney. [29]

Quackenbush later improved on this design and raised U.S. Patent 358,984, “Apparatus for Manufacturing Projectiles” on December 31st 1886. Haviland and Gunn’s invention pressed a shot of lead to form the slug whereas Quackenbush’s invention included forming the shot itself from molten lead. [30]"

and with the patentnumber I find the patent also https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=2902...%252Fpatimg.htm







the patent drawing makes me thinking if its possible to make old style spitzer bullets by swaging .22 pellet(who had the right weigth) with the rock chucker

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: Oskar Will [Re: lancaster]
      #356996 - 24/09/21 04:43 AM

For such a tiny slug of pure lead, most any bench press would be more than sufficient.
Use of an existing slug for swaging would of course be easiest.

There is a .25 cal. non-lead pellet that weighs 16.54 gr. These are soft enough to shoot in air rifles, so must be also soft enough for swaging - maybe, maybe not, however, they might work as-is.

https://predatorpellets.com/product/gto-lead-free-25-caliber/

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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