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EDELWEISS
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Talk to me about Paper Patch
      #350879 - 27/02/21 11:33 AM

Ok, I "know" what it is; but I dont know why (what it does that regular bullets wont do?) If I would normally use a 458 size bullet, what size should I use with a Paper Patch?

Im looking to load 45-70 and if I get bold 45-120; but thats on hold for a bit. Im also playing around with some others (38-55 and maybe 405).

Ive been told that I need special paper and others that say "regular" paper is fine and even cigarette rolling paper BUT none of those guys actually load Paper Patch???

HELP

--------------------
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3DogMike
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #350880 - 27/02/21 12:21 PM

Educate yourself, get the book: The Paper Jacket by Paul Matthews
https://www.buffaloarms.com/the-paper-jacket-by-paul-matth-bokpj.html

Then peruse this page at Buffalo Arms:
https://www.buffaloarms.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=the+paper+jacket

There is more (and less) to paper patching than what you might get online here or elsewhere from a some self styled experts.......



--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: 3DogMike]
      #350881 - 27/02/21 12:52 PM

Yes - Mike's advice is spot-on.

The paper jacket by the late Paul Mathews is an excellent start - and finish, or you can continue with Loading Black Powder Rifle Cartridges, by Paul Mathews.

I went from having trouble & struggling with paper patching BP rifle Ctgs., to ACING Paper Patching after reading & following Paul's methods in "The Paper Jacket".

Today, 20 or so (more) years later, I am still using the wax paper 'barrier' disks, but might switch to the more 'modern' bee brood foundation he spoke of in later books, likely "Loading Black Powder Rifle Cartridges" which I also have.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: DarylS]
      #350896 - 28/02/21 12:01 AM

Ten or twelve years ago I wrote and self-published an article on my methods for paper patching. The information in my article most useful is the way I "mass-produce" patches. I wouldn't want to use a brass template and cut them one at a time. I still use the same technique.

Anyway, in hopes it might help somebody, here's a link to my article: http://rbsiii.com/PaperPatchedBullets/index.html

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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3DogMike
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: CptCurl]
      #350902 - 28/02/21 02:50 AM

Curl/Roscoe's article is good info, and he's one of the guys (Daryl as well) that you can actually pay attention to his advise.

HERE:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=179199&an=0&page=0#Post179199

A simple Google or Duck Duck Go search of "paper patch bullets" will give you lots to read and educate yourself.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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rigbymauser
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: 3DogMike]
      #350916 - 28/02/21 09:43 AM

I too have many books about PP...but Curls artical are the best and easiest to grasp for a beginner.

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3DogMike
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: rigbymauser]
      #351038 - 02/03/21 12:43 PM

.....guess edelweiss got his answers since he's not been back?

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: 3DogMike]
      #351040 - 02/03/21 01:13 PM

Hopefully, he's studying Paul Mathews book, for implementation.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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EDELWEISS
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: 3DogMike]
      #351050 - 02/03/21 11:01 PM

Quote:

.....guess edelweiss got his answers since he's not been back?




Well Im not sure I got my answers but I did order the book and a template. I also read the article. Im not sure I understand the "how too" part about printing but I think I "got" the rest---I THINK???

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #351058 - 03/03/21 05:10 AM

The book will show "how" with pictures and text.
Not sure what you mean by "printing".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: DarylS]
      #351062 - 03/03/21 06:06 AM

Quote:

The book will show "how" with pictures and text.
Not sure what you mean by "printing".



Daryl,
Roscoe/Curls essay describes using his printer to make what I'd call "guide lines" on the patching paper.
Not something I find helpful, but some might like it.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: 3DogMike]
      #351072 - 03/03/21 02:06 PM

I seem to have forgotten that. I did go to Staples and use a paper slicing machine for cutting patches I'd marked out at one time. That was a lot easier than the backed razor blade & steel ruler I had been using.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: DarylS]
      #351073 - 03/03/21 02:13 PM

For that matter, for your first attempts at making and applying and shooting paper patched bullets, don't fret over high-output production.
Make some and shoot them. There are enough variables including your rifle where it's possible that your first combination of type of paper, thickness of paper, length of patch, lube, etc might not be exactly what you want to go forward with.

Pencil and ruler and scissors will be good to start.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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93x64mm
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: 3DogMike]
      #351075 - 03/03/21 10:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The book will show "how" with pictures and text.
Not sure what you mean by "printing".



Daryl,
Roscoe/Curls essay describes using his printer to make what I'd call "guide lines" on the patching paper.
Not something I find helpful, but some might like it.
- Mike




Mike hits the nail on the head here. Once your initial 'template' is made ( I used Cap Curl's method to measure & derive patch size etc) I transposed those measurements onto my paper which happen to be A4 lined note paper, From memory I had 20 or so lines with 2 patches per line, so ended up approximately 40 + patches per page.
This I scanned into my computer. You can then print out as many templates as you wish, them all being exactly the same. You can cut up using a guillotine or just a box cutter/scissors etc.
It is a slow process, but I would suggest a micrometer to measure your paper thickness. There is a lot of debate as to what size should your overall patched projectile size should be, I'm shooting in a new rifled styled barrel so I'm patching to groove diameter, my projectile (soft or near pure lead) is just at bore diameter. Even if you are under groove diameter & using BP, the bullet will obturate up to size at the point of firing. This basic idea may vary with rifling types, as some of the old 'invisible' rifling doesn't like PP bullets at all, it is a lot of trial & error - but bloody good fun!
I also PP for a Martini Henry 577-450 & it has a tapering bore to complicate matters further!


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Huvius
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: 93x64mm]
      #351078 - 04/03/21 03:07 AM

I would add just three things to accompany Curlís excellent tutorial.
First, I have found that a small plastic cutting board with the ďjuice grooveĒ (or whatever the channel around the edge is called) helps me to align the patch and keep it straight.
Just lay the tail of the patch across the groove, nice and straight, and then lay the bullet in the groove and roll it - staying in the groove. Works for me - ymmv.

Also, donít get too hung up on perfection.
Experience will produce better results, of course, but looking at original Remington, Sharps, even special Farrow bullets shows that in period, they didnít get too precise in their patching. Many of these old originals have overlaps and crooked patches. Must not have bothered them much. Very surprising really!

And last, itís accepted that the patch should stop at the base of the bullet ogive.
I think that is true but I have used some with the patch way past the ogive base and they shot beautifully.
I canít explain that but there it is... Like I said, donít get too worried about the precision unless you are shooting long range.
Just get out there and try it!!!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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3DogMike
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: Huvius]
      #351092 - 04/03/21 10:14 AM

There is no "one size fits all" solution to making paper patch bullets work.
Depends on your barrel/rifling, leade, bullet temper, bullet style, paper type/thickness, over powder wads, lube, etc. etc. Personal technique comes into it as well.......
There may be an "average" suggested way to get "average" results, but messing with paper patch simply takes a lot of personal investment in reading/study then trial and error. Simple spoon feeding, especially via internet, will not add much to potential success.


--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: Huvius]
      #351093 - 04/03/21 10:43 AM

I use just such a board as well, for applying patches. IIRC, Paul covers that, does he not?
With mine, the flat base of the bullet just had the damp paper folded over it. I did not twist into a pig-tail and snip with side cutters after drying, as I did with a cup-based mould for my first paper patching, back in the late 70's.
Mine were bore sized + about 1/2 a thousandth after patching. They worked perfectly with black powder, but would likely not work with most smokeless loads. I think Paul got bore sized to work in his Marlin with IMR4198 or H4198.
Perhaps I lucked out, but I followed Paul's methods, right down to his Beeswax:Vaseline lube, (I used 60:40) and his method of bullet size and had instant success. I had shot some paper patched bullets prior to this, so had some experience but not as good success I had with is methods.
I did not graphite my patched bullets, but did rub some of the bullet lube onto them.
Pay particular attention to his method of deciding if the lube is good enough, or not. THAT is important, at least I found his "lubrication rules" to work perfectly.
I could fire 10 into barely over MOA at 100 meters no wiping, then push all of that fouling out of the bore, with one dry patch - then carry on for another 10 shots or more.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: DarylS]
      #351094 - 04/03/21 11:08 AM

Is the patch supposed to come off the bullet soon after it leaves the barrel? Is there a rule of thumb for how far they seperate after firing? Does rifling "Print" on the bullet or just the paper? These are all questions im stumbling with fact vs fiction....

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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Huvius
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #351106 - 05/03/21 02:30 AM

Yes, the patch comes off the bullet right after leaving the barrel. Ideally, the patch splits into confetti like strips.
The rifling should not actually cut the paper but rather compress and thin the patch so as the bullet leaves the barrel, the patch tears along those places the rifling compressed. Sort of like folding a paper and tearing along the fold.
The rifling does imprint onto the bullet.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: Huvius]
      #351109 - 05/03/21 05:14 AM

Yes - usually strips on the ground.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: DarylS]
      #351110 - 05/03/21 05:30 AM

My Bro's first Shiloh Sharps, bought as a barreled action had only 1 1/2 thousandths deep rifling. We tried for about 8 years to get it to shoot black powder and cast as well as black powder and paper patched bullets. Nothing worked very well, even with linotype metal bullets, however black powder and jacketed bullets shot amazingly well with sub MOA groups at 100 metres. Both 500gr. Hornady bullets and 300gr. HP Hornadys would shoot cloverleafs at 100 meters. BP and cast or
patched bullet diameter bullet shot at best, about 5" to 6" same range. The success with jacketed bullet showed us this barrel would shoot, we just hadn't found that load.
I bought a few Paul Mathews books & read about the bore sized bullets AFTER patching & did this, in my Rolling Block .45 3 1/4" as well as his Sharps .45 3 1/4". Instant success - mine running 1.3" for 5 shots off bags at 100 meters and Taylor's rifle running 1.5".
We re-cut 2 moulds using a ground drill in the shape of the Sharps factory bullets, but of course they weren't tapered except for the ogive.
One mould, a 4-cavity Ohaus .44 mould we bored 2 different weights, 460gr. and 520gr. as well as a single cavity small calibre Lyman mould to a 400gr. bullet. Taylor's rifle liked the short bullet and so did he - a matter of reduced recoil. He used 100gr. 2F GOEX, grease cookie, then 10, .10" monopoly board wads then the bullet, case sized to just hold the PP bore sized bullet(bore sized after patching with MASKING tape).
Mine liked the heavier bullet. I used 116gr. 2F GOEX, grease cookie, .062" card, then the bullet, 520gr. patched to bore size. In Bell brass, 122gr. GOEX 2F, and same cookie and wad & bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: DarylS]
      #351166 - 07/03/21 11:29 AM

I was paper patching for the 256 Winchester today.

The only bullets that I have here that are a close match for the cartridge are some 86gr WFN flat base cast bullets.
I needed 0.001" patch material, so I used ZigZag cigarette rolling paper. Worked great running a roughly 2000fps load with 4227 in a Dan Wesson six gun.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: tinker]
      #351171 - 07/03/21 01:04 PM

That's impressive, John. Did you size them after patching?
Impressive velocity from a wheelgun as well. WOW!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: DarylS]
      #351174 - 07/03/21 01:22 PM

I did not size them after patching them.
As rolled (lightly moisten the patch paper first), they were a thou and a half under my maximum target diameter.

Light flare, seat and barely iron out the necks, chamber and shoot.

All good.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Talk to me about Paper Patch [Re: tinker]
      #351206 - 07/03/21 11:37 PM

I don't think I've had any ZigZag papers since back in my college days. . . but that was before I started paper patching bullets.

Come to think of it, I believe they all got burned up in a fire.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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