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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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EDELWEISS
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A Double Rifle for N America
      #349144 - 12/01/21 12:16 PM

If you were picking a DR for N America, WHAT would you choose? Most of my hunting is either Eastern woods with some Southern Texas Hog hunting. I generally dont like shots more than 100 yards (OK maybe 150 yards). Sure Id like to hunt Moose and Elk; but Im much more likely to be hunting Whitetail of Wild Boar with a chance for another Black Bear.

Given a choice I would pick a rimmed round over a rimless But maybe thats too much old school and rimless is OK? I had a 9.3x74R until a buddy liked it more. 8mm JRS seems good. 45-70 seems like the easy button. For coolness the longer 45s like 45-90, 100, 110, or the big daddy 45-120 just scream old school DR cartridges.

Would you want a SxS or O/U, Hammer or Hammerless? Whats your choice?


Im EDITING this to add a currently unavailable option, Id dearly love a double RIFLED 12 or 20 gauge

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If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (12/01/21 12:50 PM)

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crshelton
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #349148 - 12/01/21 12:49 PM

Well, I picked two:
Because I like my Winchester 1895 .405, I found and bought a Simson - Suhl .405 WCF SxS with express sights and the rear rib machined to take Talley scope rings or Talley peep sight. It is regulated for 300 grain bullets at 2250 fps and shoots these into less than one inch at 50 yards. Nice wood too.


I always wanted a double in .45-90 (.458 2.4) to go with my 1886 .45-90, but they are rare, so when the opportunity came to buy a nice used Beretta .45-70 double with 26 barrels, I jumped on it, thinking it would be easy to extend the chambers. Had I never shot it, I would have extended the chambers, but I did and it was sweet! Both barrels are sub minute of angle with 300 grain bullets and it groups even better with 400 grain bullets. So, it is a work-in-progress now. Did kill a boar with it and the caliber makes short work of such beasties.





With the ability to shoot 210 grain to 400 grain bullets in the .405 and 300-450 grain bullets in the .45-70, I may never need another double rifle.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
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Edited by crshelton (12/01/21 12:52 PM)

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: crshelton]
      #349149 - 12/01/21 01:02 PM

Wow (he slaps forehead) I totally forgot 405Win. I too, have a Winchester 1895 albeit a newer one. I almost took it to Afrika for lion; but my 470DR won out.

Years ago there was an article in one of the then popular gun magazines about the Pedersoli (Colt Pattern) Hammer Double rifle in 45-70. The author lengthen the chambers to 45-120. When I read that, I was in total LUST. I dont recall how it worked for him, all I remember is the pics of the Double Rifle with those long cases.....

I did a internet search last night for the 45 long cases just incase I ever make the leap. Theres a lot of options, at least a lot of listings; but very little currently in stock.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #349159 - 12/01/21 11:48 PM

.303 British.

Most British doubles in that caliber are regulated for the 215 grain bullet, which has a very high sectional density resulting in deep penetration.

The rifles in this caliber are perfectly balanced, svelte, and handy.

Brass is plentiful. Woodleigh bullets are the right choice.

What else does a man need?

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: CptCurl]
      #349171 - 13/01/21 02:09 AM

Not in North America, but I would choose a 9.3x74R or a .375 H&H Flanged. Either choice will handle anything and everything in any circumstances in North America including brown bear. Great for moose or elk. Over-gunned a little on deer but not too badly.

Add a scope on it and can snipe at hunting ranges with at least one barrel.

My Valmet in 9.3x74R with scope, it is an under and over, would do fine. Put in the 12-bore barrels and you have a shotgun.

I do prefer a side by side. Oneday will have one in .375 ... maybe ...

***

From realms of armchair North American expertise, I have always regarded the 9.3 or .338 as the ideal alround North American calibres. So a .333 or .318 would also work well. And be less overgunned on medium sized deer etc. But 250 to 300 gr bullets when needed.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Huvius
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: NitroX]
      #349179 - 13/01/21 02:52 AM

I’d take a look at the 450bpe.

One thing I’ve wanted to try is a round ball load (1,2 or three in the case) and see what happens.
Seems like a 450 could cover rabbit to moose with the appropriate load.

--------------------
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degoins
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: Huvius]
      #349196 - 13/01/21 06:32 AM

"I’d take a look at the 450bpe."

+1

I've tried it on a few whitetails so far and it works really well.

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3DogMike
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: degoins]
      #349207 - 13/01/21 12:40 PM

Easy.....go .405 Winchester, then when the nostalgia bug hits you can call it a .40-72 Winchester and use black powder.
HINT: avoid the BP substitutes they are for posers..... (or Poofters)
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
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tinker
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: 3DogMike]
      #349209 - 13/01/21 02:23 PM

My 500-450 3-1/2" BPE is good for anything I'd get to hunt here in North America

I was shooting the 20bore Purdey this weekend. It's good for any deer or antelope, hog or black bear.

The 16bore is similar but more power.

I'd really like a slender 30 caliber double rifle, my 8mm ejector rifle was fantastic. Some day when I get caught up on expenses for the kids I'll get that 30 caliber SxS

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: tinker]
      #349223 - 13/01/21 08:12 PM

Quote:

I'd really like a slender 30 caliber double rifle, my 8mm ejector rifle was fantastic. Some day when I get caught up on expenses for the kids I'll get that 30 caliber SxS



I was going to say my not yet used Tikka U/O barrel set in .30-06 was another ideal, especially American chambering. Also handles anything in North America, though a little less assurance for charging Brown bear in the Alders! Perfect for everything else.

Not a nice slim SS double rifle! Though one fifth to a twentieth of a possible price.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: NitroX]
      #349225 - 13/01/21 11:11 PM

ALL great ideas. Im still pushing for a 12 or even 20 gauge rifled SxS perhaps with the capability to use (brass) 3 or 3 1/2 in shells. Im thinking a 3" 20 gauge would handle even big Bears. That being said I know its DR fantasy.

Since 30-06 is THE American cartridge, its hard to argue against. 35 Whelen might be better for heavier game.

A QD scope mount seems like a 21century option for longer shots where necessary; but Im thinking more towards a small Red Dot like a Trijicon RMR with a large dot for closer shots and still keeping a minimum footprint

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DarylS
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #349237 - 14/01/21 01:53 PM

Well, apparently you can make 3 1/2" 12 bore brass cases out of .5 Browning cases.

As far as I know, the commercial brass 12 bore cases are 2 5/8" at most, at lest as sold by Buffalo Arms.

How long 20bore cases happen to be, I don't know. Can they be made out of .600 Nitro brass?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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LRF
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: DarylS]
      #349240 - 14/01/21 09:35 PM

45-120's compared to a 45-70. I shoot the 45-120's in my Remington Rolling Block Creedmore.

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93x64mm
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: LRF]
      #349241 - 14/01/21 10:36 PM

Quote:

45-120's compared to a 45-70. I shoot the 45-120's in my Remington Rolling Block Creedmore.




Great old round (both really) the old .45-120, it must have compared favourably with the .450BPE?
In full Nitro form it would be a blast, rechambering a Ruger No1 in.45-70 to one of those!

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: 93x64mm]
      #349244 - 14/01/21 11:09 PM

Yeah 45-120 is a hoot. Years ago I had a 45-70 H&R Buffalo Rifle rechambered to 45-120. When I got it back from having the 30" tube brass telescope mounted a buddy insisted that he had to have it...That seems to be to story of my guns, I come up with what seems like really cool guns and end up selling them to buddies who only see the beauty of the project once its in their hands, then Im off to the next. That was when I was young, now Ive reached the point in life where I want what I want FOR ME!

As for making brass shotshelss from 50 BMG shells, well I guess its about as simple as making shotshells from a 68 VW bumper. I assume youre talking about the 12ga from hell stuff. Just take a look at a 50 BMG case then tell me how much lathe work you think it needs....

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DarylS
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: 93x64mm]
      #349254 - 15/01/21 04:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

45-120's compared to a 45-70. I shoot the 45-120's in my Remington Rolling Block Creedmore.




Great old round (both really) the old .45-120, it must have compared favourably with the .450BPE?
In full Nitro form it would be a blast, rechambering a Ruger No1 in.45-70 to one of those!



The .45 3-1/4" was never a "Sharps" factory chambering however there were some Sharps rifles turned up with 3 1/4" chambers, notably .40, .45 and .50 calibres. At that time, Winchester actually chambered a .45 3 1/4" ctg. loaded with lighter bullets, same as the British Express ctg. They even used the same brass, I think. Winchester brought the .50 3 1/4" round out actually after Sharps closed their doors.
Other gun smiths or shops, possibly in St. Louis, re-chambered existing rifles to the 3 1/4" case. Fruend (sp) was one-such gun smith.
As far as comparing with the British .450 Express, the express was loaded with light weight, 270 to 300gr. bullets normally, while the 3 1/4" chambering in Sharps rifles were usually loaded with heavier, 500gr. and up, bullets, just as the long, 2 7/8" Sharps ctg. in .45 was loaded.
The Sharps 2 7/8" ctg. was called by what was loaded in it, which even happened to be 120gr. of powder and a 550gr. bullet, ie: .45/120/550. It did not need 3 1/4" to load 120gr. powder.
I also had a Remington RB in .45 3 1/4" chambering.

Loaded with modern powders & in a lever action rifle, the .45/70 will exceed what the 3 1/4" case (British or American) could do with black powder, with any bullet weight.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: DarylS]
      #349300 - 16/01/21 08:00 AM

45-120 sharps is a cool cartridge but whats realy north american as possible is the 70-150 WCF


I have a modern dummy round made by using 12 ga magtech brass. someone in germany had a winchester gun for this cartridge and made them for sale to pay back his die set. take a good solid 12 ga shotgun and make new barrels with 700 NE barrel blanks.
its a mystery for me this cartridge is still forgotten in the united states. everyone should know this by looking into COTW.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: lancaster]
      #349308 - 16/01/21 11:22 AM

I'm not sure it every was a ctg. I know I saw it in my first COTW, way back in the early 70's and thought WOW - then read some time later, is was a spoof, someone made up.
Quite possibly someone barreled up an action for it, but a rifle made by Winchester, I just don't know?
If so, it is not listed in any of my Winchester books.
It would have to have been barreled up and chambered, perhaps in one of the 10 bore 1887 Winchesters, I would imagine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: DarylS]
      #349311 - 16/01/21 12:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

45-120's compared to a 45-70. I shoot the 45-120's in my Remington Rolling Block Creedmore.




Great old round (both really) the old .45-120, it must have compared favourably with the .450BPE?
In full Nitro form it would be a blast, rechambering a Ruger No1 in.45-70 to one of those!



The .45 3-1/4" was never a "Sharps" factory chambering however there were some Sharps rifles turned up with 3 1/4" chambers, notably .40, .45 and .50 calibres. At that time, Winchester actually chambered a .45 3 1/4" ctg. loaded with lighter bullets, same as the British Express ctg. They even used the same brass, I think. Winchester brought the .50 3 1/4" round out actually after Sharps closed their doors.
Other gun smiths or shops, possibly in St. Louis, re-chambered existing rifles to the 3 1/4" case. Fruend (sp) was one-such gun smith.
As far as comparing with the British .450 Express, the express was loaded with light weight, 270 to 300gr. bullets normally, while the 3 1/4" chambering in Sharps rifles were usually loaded with heavier, 500gr. and up, bullets, just as the long, 2 7/8" Sharps ctg. in .45 was loaded.
The Sharps 2 7/8" ctg. was called by what was loaded in it, which even happened to be 120gr. of powder and a 550gr. bullet, ie: .45/120/550. It did not need 3 1/4" to load 120gr. powder.
I also had a Remington RB in .45 3 1/4" chambering.

Loaded with modern powders & in a lever action rifle, the .45/70 will exceed what the 3 1/4" case (British or American) could do with black powder, with any bullet weight.



Is the .45/120 cartridge the same as the US .45 3 1/4"?

How does the powder capacity of the .45/120 compare to the various /45- NE cartridges?

Can the .45/120 if loaded with modern smokeless powders and a suitable rifle, achieve the same sort of velocities ie a 480 or 500 gr projectile at plus or minus 2,170 fps or thereabouts? I would be sure it could.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylS
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: NitroX]
      #349313 - 16/01/21 01:11 PM

The original .45/120/550 Sharps was the 2 7/8" case.

Sharps never chambered a 3 1/4" case in a Sharps rifle.

In modern times, writers called the .45 3 1/4", a .45-120-500 Sharps, or short formed, .45 120 Sharps.
Thus today, most all people call the .45 3 1/4", a .45-120 Sharps or a .45-120-500 or 550 Sharps depending on the bullet used.
In a modern action, there is no reason why the .45-120 "Sharps" cases currently available could not be loaded to the same ballistics as the .450 Nitro.
I used 116gr. 2f GOEX in RCBS cases and 122gr.2F GOEX in Bell cases.
Bell cases in .50 3 1/4", easily held 140gr. 2f GOEX AND 170gr. 1F Meteor (made in Scotland). The meteor powder was much heavier per volume, than GOEX or C&H of the day.
In a Shiloh Sharps rifle, the .45 3-1/4" case can be loaded to just over 1,800fps with a 500gr. cast bullet. The load listed in Hodgdon's annual manual this year, is 60gr. H4895.
There are 3 other loads listed that exceed 1,700fps with the same bullet and producing under 29,000CUP.
Incidentally, their data for the .50 3 1/4" case they call the .50-140 Sharps, lists all 3 loads with 425gr. bullet at over 2,200fps and all 3 of the 515gr. loads at over 2,000fps are under
28,000CUP, thus safe in the Sharps replicas.
Much depends on firing pin diameter. Black powder pins might start to leak primers at over 26,000CUP - caution.
My bro's new .45/70 Sharps from Shiloh or C Sharps Arms???- had a modern smokeless small diameter firing pin, so it should be quite fine up to whatever pressure the maker notes -
which I do not know at this time. Hodgdon supplies data, though.

Further to this, 30 years ago Accurate Arms powder mfg'r's data had 500gr. jacketed running just about 2,150fps using AA3100 powder in the .50 3 1/4" "Sharps" case. IIRC, the load was 103gr., however do not trust my memory on that.
That is the load my late buddy Brad used in his Shiloh Arms Sharps. It was a kicker, with the hooked steel butt plate.

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Huvius
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: DarylS]
      #349314 - 16/01/21 01:47 PM

I do think, though, that in the recent craze of loading vintage cartridges to their max, the 450 3-1/4” Rigby cartridge would surpass the 45-120 simply based on capacity.
The 45-120 can be loaded to 450NE levels, but the 450NE can also be loaded hotter than original as well.
It’s the same thing as loading the 404 Jeffery to Weatherby levels in modern rifles - who needs that?!

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lancaster
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: Huvius]
      #349327 - 17/01/21 12:53 AM

the 450 NE with its original ballistic is good for anything but you dont need so much also for the biggest north american game. the 45-120 have a maximum CIP pressure of 2200 bar.

here you have pressure testet loads for this cartridge



all under 2200 bar max, under CIP, the proof house mellrichstadt have a test barrel

a 485 grains lead bullet makes 555 m/sec / 1820 f/sec giving an energy of 3577 ft lbf /4851 joule

to compare

405 Win 3,236 ft lbf /4,387 J

9,3x74R 3,434 ft lbf / 4,656 J

450 NE 4,930 ft lbf / 6,680 J

I would say this is just rigth for the biggest american game grizzly, polar bear, buffalo, moose

a lot of power but no overkill

sure, you can build a 45/70 but when I have to make the work it must be something extraordinary,

70/150 here with .577 snider to compare







interesting big bore

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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crshelton
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: lancaster]
      #349362 - 17/01/21 01:26 PM

The .405 WCF with 300 grain bullets does seem to be good for any American big game. Handloaded 300 grain North Fork, Barnes, etc bullets make it even better.
Below, a 300 pound Red deer cow taken with 300 grain Barnes from Simson Suhl .405 DR:


Or for added punch for really large and dangerous game, the 400 grain Woodleigh at 2080 fps:



My 400 grain hand loads run the same in both rifles, the 1895 .405 and the Simson .405.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

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nopride2
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: crshelton]
      #349385 - 18/01/21 05:30 AM

I've got a Chapuis double rifle in 45-70. It's been regulated to shoot a 400 gr. bullet at about 1800 fps. I've taken a couple of deer and a bison with it. Physical problems and age have put an end to my hunting. It's time to put the rifle on the market. PM me if you have an interest.

Dave

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A Double Rifle for N America [Re: nopride2]
      #349390 - 18/01/21 06:55 AM

Quote:

I've got a Chapuis double rifle in 45-70. It's been regulated to shoot a 400 gr. bullet at about 1800 fps. I've taken a couple of deer and a bison with it. Physical problems and age have put an end to my hunting. It's time to put the rifle on the market. PM me if you have an interest.

Dave



PM sent

--------------------
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