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3DogMike
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British History: Gordon of Khartoum?
      #349071 - 10/01/21 01:38 PM

Interesting that I "may" have an Alexander Henry rifle that could be attributed to Colonel (later Major General) C.G.Gordon......
Logged in Henry records on 31AUG1872 and sold to one "Col. Gordon".
So perhaps THE "China" Gordon or later "Gordon of Khartoum".

Not that my research is unimpeachable, but I can find no other "Colonel" Gordon in online British Army records that fits the 1872 time frame.
At any rate a very nice and fully shootable 1870 Patent Hammerless in .577/.450 MH.
28" barrel, 7lbs 14oz, 13 7/8' LOP

This posted mostly for the British History buffs........and I am interested in knowledgeable comment.
More pictures later if I can get IMGUR to cooperate.

- Mike



--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #349072 - 10/01/21 01:49 PM

Quote:

This posted mostly for the British History buffs........and I am interested in knowledgeable comment.
More pictures later if I can get IMGUR to cooperate.




Email me the images and I will load them up on the NE servers. A rifle definitely for our archive.

nitro AT nitro express dot com

Obviously fix the address to email. I will need to check my email account. Haven't for many days. It may be full.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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lancaster
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: NitroX]
      #349074 - 10/01/21 03:14 PM

beside of being a very nice rifle that seem me the find of the year
definitely needs more work to prove and confirm the "gordon" connection

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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HistoricBore
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: lancaster]
      #349084 - 11/01/21 03:12 AM

There still exists a British boarding (private fee-paying) school called the Gordon School in the village of West End, Surrey, just two miles west of Bisley Camp and the famous rifle ranges. I used to drive past it every day.

It was founded in memory of the late General Gordon to educate boys for the British Army. I expect they know a lot about his life and career, with postings. All schools and travel are currently locked down, but I will check to see if they have a website.

HB

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Rule303
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #349099 - 11/01/21 10:28 AM

A very good looking rifle and top find even if it did belong to another Gordon. Hope the research shows it did belong to the General Gordon.

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EDELWEISS
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: Rule303]
      #349119 - 12/01/21 05:35 AM

"...a world with no room for the Gordon, is a world that will soon return to the sands..."

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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HistoricBore
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #349121 - 12/01/21 05:40 AM

This time line seems to fit:


Gordon was promoted to colonel on 16 February 1872.[82] In 1872, Gordon was sent to inspect the British military cemeteries in the Crimea, and when passing through Constantinople he made the acquaintance of the Prime Minister of Egypt.

Lots more on Wikipedia.

HB

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Hunter4752001
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: HistoricBore]
      #349156 - 12/01/21 08:02 PM

You indicated you logged in to the Henry records. I didn't know they were available on line. Do they show the actual ledger page or a text version of the information. I believe that John Dickson & Sons are the custodians of the Alex Henry records. They charge for copies of the ledger pages. https://www.john-dickson.com/gun-history

It might be important because during that period there was another Charles Gordon (Charles Ferrier Gordon born 1859 of Halmyre Scotland) who was an active buyer of high quality firearms. He bought so many guns from John Dickson & Sons it was mused that the company would have gone broke without him. So the question is, does the actual ledger page record Colonel Charles Gordon or simply Charles Gordon which a later transcriber has assumed to be Col Gordon? Interesting it is thought that Charles Ferrier Gordon made his first purchase in 1875, therefore your odds are more favourable that an 1872 purchase was the Colonel Charles Gordon.

Either way you have a beautiful rifle irrespective of its provenance.

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3DogMike
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #349175 - 13/01/21 02:35 AM

Hello Hunter475
To date I have actually used the extracts from the Henry records found in the Donald Dallas and Wal Winfer books; you are correct the Alexander Henry records are not online.
Dickson Managing Director, Mr. J-P Daeschler, is sending me the copies of records, etc. by Post. Yes, £55 gets one the whole works and includes cost of Post.

In my research I certainly did come across mention of the noted eccentric C.F. Gordon, and you are spot on, he probably DID keep Henry in business. The man would have been 13 years old in 1872 so quite unlikely that he bought the rifle; that man's story is an interesting read in and of itself.
Thanks for your input,
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #349181 - 13/01/21 03:01 AM

A bit more about this Alexander Henry:
There were only 88-90 total hammerless single shot actions (and not all even conform to the several different Patent designs or specifications) produced by Henry, and of those, perhaps up to 20, were not finished into complete rifles. It appears from the records that 47 were made as sporting rifles, the balance were made as military pattern for government trials or as gifts by the British and/or Henry to other interested governments or influential individuals.
Of the ~88 Alexander Henry hammerless rifles produced, there are only 14 known examples, this Action #18 is one of those known 14.
It is based on the 1870 Patent, has a thru bolt to secure the buttstock, internal side hammer, and a lever actuated “beam” that actuates the breech block. The firing pin is not bushed, but rather has a rear retention plate similar to a Sharps rifle.
As can be seen in the last picture, the top cover/loading trough is removable. The actual entire action lockwork, trigger, and lever are mounted on a lower action plate and are removed from the bottom. The buttstock and forend do not need to be dismounted in order to remove the action plate.

A few more pictures








Top cover plate removed, note the internal side hammer:


--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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degoins
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #349247 - 15/01/21 12:20 AM

What a treasure!! Thanks for sharing.

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3DogMike
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: degoins]
      #349259 - 15/01/21 07:08 AM



--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #349274 - 15/01/21 01:49 PM

Looking very positive, on Gordon of Khartoum, Mike.

Saw the sent pics in my email yesterday. But you have managed to post anyway in the meantime. Good work.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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3DogMike
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: NitroX]
      #349278 - 15/01/21 02:50 PM

Quote:

Looking very positive, on Gordon of Khartoum, Mike.
Saw the sent pics in my email yesterday. But you have managed to post anyway in the meantime. Good work.


My internet and IMGUR are a real cock up.......... anyones guess day to day if I can get photos posted.

As to “Col. Gordon”; it looks like it well could be “Chinese” Gordon or “Gordon of Khartoum”.....but I lack definitive resources.
Scottish ancestry, British Officers were usually keen sportsmen, a Scottish gunmaker, and a military calibre. Not to mention that I cannot find another “Colonel Gordon” noted in available records of the British Army Officers in exactly 1872
His diaries of that period apparently were published at one time, but are elusive and not so far found online or available in print.
I have sourced a book of his letters to his sister (paperback)....we shall see. I doubt he might have mentioned his sporting arms to his sister, but who knows.
Thus far an enigma.
- Mike

ADDED:
As an interesting (and perhaps controversial) aside; the old .577/.450 MH as in this Henry, with black powder, equals the traditional .375 H&H 300 grain load in Taylor’s KO values..... ~39 for either one. Maybe those old boys were not as under gunned as modern guys would think?

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #349590 - 23/01/21 02:04 PM

The book of letters to his sister is interesting, but not a help......seems all Gordon wrote about to his sister was of his religion and self doubts -vs- his faith; nothing of any particular specific import as to travels or outside activities.
Looks like my only hope is to discover a source for his diaries from the early 1870's.....

That said, the rifle does shoot nicely, no pictures due snow, ice, & cold......
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #349594 - 23/01/21 02:37 PM

If it was mine I would be making the claim and just provide a qualification that you are 90% sure, in the absence of any conflicting information. I would be saying "it is believed to be a rifle owned by Col Gordon, the famous Gordon of Khartoum."

Colonels are not so common, that numerous "Col Gordon" would have existed in that same year. Of course possible, but you may never actually prove his ownership 100%.

As far as I know, he wasn't a celebrated hunter, but military leader, adventurer and leader, s a sporting arm, a necessity for any senior officer, may not have been a big thing in his career and life. If it sat in Scotland, maybe only rare use when "home".

A nice treasure for the wall and occasional use.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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lancaster
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: NitroX]
      #349604 - 24/01/21 05:32 AM

"Colonels are not so common, that numerous "Col Gordon" would have existed in that same year. "

very true. I would ask any british gun related museum for help.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: lancaster]
      #349614 - 24/01/21 09:18 AM

Beautiful piece of kit there Mike!
Would be nice to see how it shoots & is it like the military designed tapering bore?

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3DogMike
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #349624 - 24/01/21 12:06 PM

lancaster,
thank you for the suggestion, I think I will try contacting the Imperial War Museum to see if they have anything.

93x64,
the rifle's barrel is a Henry patent number barrel (of course) and is 7 segment tapered Henry rifling. Easily accepts a .470" (paper patched diameter) bullet seated in the throat.

It is the throes of a snow and ice Winter here so no time on targets for a few months.

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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tinker
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #349629 - 24/01/21 02:12 PM

Quote:



It is the throes of a snow and ice Winter here so no time on targets for a few months





The horror!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Huvius
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: tinker]
      #349631 - 24/01/21 03:08 PM

Fascinating information Mike!
I’m very glad that one with an interest in firearms history, and the willingness to report, has this rifle.
Of course, there is also the opportunity for me to have a good look at it in person some day!

My supposition is that many higher rank British officers did often order sporting rifles in the same chambering as the adopted military round as supply of appropriate ammunition would be always at hand wherever they may be in the Empire.
Therefore, I’d not assume that a rifle such as this would be left at home in the UK during deployment but, rather, would have been taken abroad with the officer.
Glad you have it!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: Huvius]
      #349636 - 24/01/21 06:45 PM

Quote:


Therefore, I’d not assume that a rifle such as this would be left at home in the UK during deployment but, rather, would have been taken abroad with the officer.




I would assume most sporting arms, at least a small number, would accompany a senior officer, to their posting in the Empire. Which is what I said.

Quote:

a sporting arm, a necessity for any senior officer



Postings were not for a few weeks like today, but often for years. And a long trip to and fro.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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93x64mm
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: tinker]
      #349648 - 25/01/21 09:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:



It is the throes of a snow and ice Winter here so no time on targets for a few months





The horror!


Oh I really do feel sorry for you snow bound guys!
Here the weather is quite hot & humid, more than OK to get out & about; just wish I was mobile, I have bulged disc in my back so it will be long time for me as well to do some serious practice again!
More like a GIANT PAIN IN THE ARSE for both of us Tinker!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #349665 - 25/01/21 03:06 PM

Was 44 deg C or thereabouts here yesterday. Today is very humid and a rare Summer rainy day. A hot tropical 34 deg C.


I just finished watching the fantastic old classic "Khartoum" movie with the great actor Charlton Heston. An actor of great character we do not see much in today's piffels.

It is not available here on netflux, prime, or stan, and even fetch. Perhaps non-PC because of the boot polish face of Sir Lawrence Oliver. Might have been taken off the viewing lists by the "Ministries of Truth" because of Black Lives Matter BD and white actors playing darkies (?) .

Found it on YouTube movies and paid a rental.

I also do have a DVD of it anyway at the farm. More and more will continue my DVD collection, as unless they get damange or deteriorate, at least my own library can't be easily censored.

Great epic movie. Great theme. Great story. And great acting. The sort of movie not made anymore.

"... but there is this: A world with no room for the Gordons, is a world that will return to the sands."

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: British History: Gordon of Khartoum? [Re: NitroX]
      #349666 - 25/01/21 03:12 PM

Quote:

"... but there is this: A world with no room for the Gordons, is a world that will return to the sands."



A very appropriate quotation for today, and these times, with the Ministries of Truth re-writing history. No doubt Gordon was the evil colonialist. And the Mahdi the enlightened peace loving dark person oppressed buy colonialists!

Back to that wonderful possibly historic rifle.

It reminds me of my humble Aussie Rosier sporting .577/450. The use of this cartridge must have been no so uncommon in the Empire in the 1870's and later. Compared to front stuffers and older firearms no doubt the magnum or 6.5 mm Creedmoor of its time! Ha ha, except it WAS actually new and revolutionary.

A great sporting arm for the military officer. And no shortage of free ammo purloined from the QM. As such it was later banned ie the .450 because of mutinies in India and elsewhere in the Empire.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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