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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
8 Bore "builders kit" for sale
      #348855 - 05/01/21 10:38 AM

Theres a 8 Bore set of parts for sale on GB. Its a set of old smoothbore muzzleloader barrels, two locks, and a chunk of wood for the stock. I was interested until I saw the price. Hes asking $1000 and thats the reduced price. Maybe thats a good price IDK?

I really am interested but Im trying to guess at how much it would cost to complete. I dont have a clue where/who I could seek out to do the stock. The barrels need to be joined and at least reasonably regulated or made absolutely parallel. Then of course Id want sights, a quarter rib would be cool with an ivory front sight. And since Im fantasizing I seem to recall someone had a diamond or was it a ruby as a front bead???

Then of course Id need a good adversary to hunt with it.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348858 - 05/01/21 12:02 PM

Just buy this instead


https://www.gunbroker.com/item/888548113

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: tinker]
      #348859 - 05/01/21 12:13 PM

Or this

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/884656158

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bwanabobftw
.375 member


Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 665
Loc: Texas
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: tinker]
      #348860 - 05/01/21 12:31 PM

I have to agree with Tinker those 2 on GunBroker would be much cheaper than starting from scratch. But, I understand wanting to build your own as well. Good Luck !!!!!!!!!!
Robert

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: tinker]
      #348865 - 05/01/21 01:34 PM

Quote:

Just buy this instead


https://www.gunbroker.com/item/888548113



Thats a really cool rifle..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: Ripp]
      #348884 - 05/01/21 11:51 PM

WOW! I missed the WR rifle. Very Cooooool. I dont see me bringing either of them home; but Ill sure miss not having the rifle over my mantel and in my hands on my next Tiger hunt.....

I also note the barrels are just under 22". That seems about right for a guy on foot (as opposed to horseback).

The smooth bore listing is also intriguing; but Id definitely feel the need to shorten the barrels from a shotgun length (31" currently) to something like 24" for a more "rifle" fur vs feather gun size.

As to the "kit", the ability to bring it to completion is way beyond my skills, I do have some design ideas though. Id be much more serious if I had a source to do the stock work. Thats my major shortcoming.

Still I might try it IF the price was reduced a bit. Am I out of line thinking its priced $300-$500 too high

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348886 - 06/01/21 03:28 AM

Show us the kit

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: tinker]
      #348888 - 06/01/21 05:04 AM

Quality parts to build a muzzleloading rifle with a single barrel, single lock, runs $1,000.00 to about $1,300.00 today, whether longrifle or 1/2 stock shorter plains-type rifle.

A pair of locks, double barrel set and the wood, would cost more, if it was available from an outfit like Trackofthewolf or one of the others - Petatonica, for instance. Those parts are just not available.

The condition of the parts has "some" value in itself(knowledge).
That parts "kit" sounds quite reasonable, to me, if the locks and barrels are in good shape or new.

Since the barrels need to be joined, are ribs included in the "Kit"?

I assume the barrels are breached? What about the tang? included?

WOW - yes, an excellent price if of decent condition & all parts needed, are included - hooked breaches and matching tang.

This is not a "kit" for less than a really good builder, someone with experience.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: tinker]
      #348906 - 06/01/21 11:18 AM

Quote:

Show us the kit



Heres the link
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/882478842

And the description
I have too many projects and this one must go. I bought it earlier this year. Just about everything you need to build your own 8 bore English double, it consists of a pair of twist steel 31" barrels marked W. Ellis with Birmingham proof marks. They were separated and de-rusted by someone else. No ribs but a short section of lower rib remains. Marked "9" but left bore measures .830" at the muzzle and the right is .850" making this an 8 bore. Bores are far from perfect but I would shoot this with light loads. Flash holes clear with intact 1/4-28 threads for the nipples. Massive 3" thick stock blank. Side locks are newish with a tiny maker's mark I can't read in the crook of each mainspring. A pair of new, undrilled hammer castings/forgings, left and right. Triggers, trigger guard, buttplate, fore end key and another piece I guess is the floor/pivot for the triggers. I was told by a member of the British Militaria Forum that William Ellis was in business in Birmingham at 45/46 Whittall St. The father from 1822-1840. Wife or widow Anne from 1841-1850. Son William from 1851-1868. Ellis was later bought by Webley & Scott but shotguns with the Ellis name continued to be produced until the turn of the century. Judging from the proof marks I'm guessing these barrels were made late 1860's at the earliest. I'm asking $1000 shipped

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348907 - 06/01/21 11:26 AM

One of the alternatives you guys found was a smoothbore double with 31" barrels. I could live happily with the smoothbores; but the 31" barrels just wont work for me.

Sooooooo how do you guys feel about altering historic pieces. I truly torn on stuff like this.... The historian says NO; but we know guys altered their guns all the time. Would I be wrong to have the barrels shortened to say 24"?

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1412
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348908 - 06/01/21 11:59 AM

".....Bores are far from perfect but I would shoot this with light loads......" = CODE WORD: junk barrels

Easy for seller to say, he's not potentially losing his left arm or face. Even if reamed out and honed to decent shape you aren't going to know if the barrel wall will be thick enough until you have already paid good money.

ADVISE: Turn and (as Monty Pythons said): run away, run away......
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: 3DogMike]
      #348910 - 06/01/21 12:58 PM

You'll have thousands of dollars into that pile of parts with no resale value, nothing to show.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: tinker]
      #348918 - 06/01/21 10:57 PM

THANKS GUYS

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348927 - 07/01/21 05:27 AM

I would not be interested in this "deal".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Jim_C
.300 member


Reged: 09/08/14
Posts: 169
Loc: USA
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348928 - 07/01/21 05:29 AM

Two thoughts and some comments on this.

First up, watching the Firearms FS/T forum over at https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ will turn up a double ten gauge occasionally (and this is the right time of the year for it). Pedersoli made a nice SxS 10 gauge you could cut it with no concerns. If you're willing to go with a 12 gauge, there's one for sale now. An original in shooting condition might take longer, but you might find one.

Second, Feltwad (not sure if he's a member here) is into old shotguns. He's in England, and seems to have good connections. Over the years, he's posted photos of some of his collection, and some of his resto projects, and definitiely seems to know what he's about. He may be able to help you find an original in the >10 gauge range--you'd have to ask him. He's on the muzzleloading forum (above), not sure if he's here on NE.

I shoot an original SxS 11 gauge. Nothing special, just an old Belgian gun, probably a market hunter's gun. I've not cut it down yet, but have often contemplated doing so as I use it for ball almost exclusively. I still need to get decent sights on it (currently has a bead in front and a mark on the tang in back), and a ramrod under the barrel.

I've re-worked the crowns on the barrels so that at 50 yards, balls from both barrels with stay in a 6" circle if I do my part. Not optimum, not "kosher" per best gun practices, but good enough for it is for, and more than enough power for anything I'll likely hunt with it.

If you're committed to going with an ML double, gather caps and powder now. They've been in short supply recently.

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: Jim_C]
      #348945 - 07/01/21 12:37 PM

Ive got a Pedersoli Double rifle in .72 caliber. I got it from a member here. Its a great rifle, its just that its not a 8 Bore. Honestly I want a 4 bore; but I tell myself, a 4 Bore is even less practical than a 8 bore, when both are pushing the limits of impracticality to the realm of Im really not sure....OTOH thats never been something that bothered me when Im in the "want" mode.

Ive toyed with the 8 and 4 Bore singles from "The Gun Works". The 4 Bore, despite being a giant MFer, just called my name until I started thinking I "needed" a double, and suddenly a 8 Bore double seemed OK.

Im NOT fixated on rifled OR smoothbore, although part of me says a double smoothbore is OK but a single should be rifled. IDK, these are the arguments I have with myself and the reason I come here for a little taste of WTF???

Ive given up on the parts that got me started down this bunny trail. The Westly Richards rifled double is REALLY cool; but its kinda like wanting a date with a Hollywood starlet--yes its cool but hardly something in my reach. One of the Pedersoli 10ga doubles (smoothbores) does make the most sense from a cost and practical usefulness point--its also something that I wont worry about ruining history if I want to modify it.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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Jim_C
.300 member


Reged: 09/08/14
Posts: 169
Loc: USA
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348951 - 07/01/21 08:36 PM

You might take a look at this one: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/888682043 If you can do the stock repairs, and if the barrel is OK, it would give you a chance to get your feet wet with an 8 gauge. If you have to replace the barrel, The Gun Works could probably do the work (though you'd have to make a decision on rifled or smooth).

There's also a W&C Scott double 10, but from the photos the barrels worry me. Shame, as it was once a nice gun.

If you've got someone who can fix the action and replace the extractor, this one might be a good candidate for shooting ball from cartridge: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/886875562

Around here, prices for original ML doubles peak in the 12-20 range. No one wants a 22 or 24 gauge, and no one wants anything bigger than a 12 since you can't use steel shot in them. Prices rise again at 8 gauge, and a 4 gauge would probably go for 4-5x an equivalent 12 gauge. Almost no one shoots ball in them more than once or twice as a novelty.

For me, my 11 gauge is perfect. Heavier--thicker barrel walls--than Pedersoli's 10 gauge, but I ain't wingshooting with it. It patterns OK with bismuth shot, if I feel the need to hunt waterfowl (which hasn't happened in a decade, so I think I'm safe). It does go through a lot of powder and lead.

If I decide I can no longer live with the current barrel length, I can shorten it with a clear conscience. It has no provenance, and isn't a collector's piece. I'm going to look at a couple more tomorrow or Friday, I'll see if any look good for your project and get contact info in case you decide you want it.

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: Jim_C]
      #348976 - 08/01/21 10:58 AM

Edelweiss - You are on a slippery slope which may well cause you financial problems

I am very similarly afflicted, nothing but a 4 bore will do, the others are merely a step on the way

As a cartridge rifle is well beyond my reach I have several single 4/6 bores in percussion, which are (slightly!) more affordable, especially shotguns

I am also well into DB pistols, so called "Howdah" pistols [you are aware of my post about the BS put about by dealers etc. of these most interesting pistols]

Should you wish for my advice [given in the best intentions] is to wait for a fair example of either and snap it up!

I wish you the best of luck on your endeavours, you are obviously an enthusiast for the epitome of the gunmakers art!

]TH44

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: TH44]
      #348977 - 08/01/21 11:22 AM

Quote:

Edelweiss - You are on a slippery slope which may well cause you financial problems



Hahaha Brother you hit the nail straight on the head. Im similarly afflicted by 4 Bore lust. Im just trying to ease the way down that path. For all the $$$ I put into "not quite" Howdahs and "almost" 4 Bores I could be close to buying a "real"; OTOH I wouldnt have had the fun of the pursuit. My "almosts" and "not quites" have been fun roadside excursions.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8 Bore "builders kit" for sale [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348982 - 08/01/21 12:03 PM

I had the lust for a 10 bore, 8 bore and 4. I drew the line at 4 bore.
Today as age 70, I am glad I don't have any of those in the locker that I might be tempted to shoot.

The rifles I have, kick quite enough. If I want some punishment, I have a 3 1/2" chambered 12 bore to shoot. So far, I've been able to resist shooting that one.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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