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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle
      #348797 - 04/01/21 02:54 AM

I happened upon a thread on another forum talking about a short barrel double rifle. If I recall correctly it was a Westley Richards with 16" barrels. Of course I started lusting right away and that got me started and scheming about a build of some sort.

OK to be clear Im not even sure what Id do with it besides cuddling on cold nights... I suppose Id hunt with it. Most of my hunting is limited to Whitetail in the PA woods and the occasional Wild Boar hunt in Texas. In both cases 150m is a long shot.

My first thought was of that Pedersoli Howdah muzzleloader with the "bolt on" stock. Ive got a 20ga (smooth bore) but Im thinking the rifled 58 caliber might be better? The barrels are just over 11 inches which seems a little shorter than what I (think) I want? BUT since the stock is only $200 its an easy test prototype on the 20ga?

Ive got a couple 16" barrels for my Encores and I do like the compact size. A double is...well its a double and so much cooler, plus it makes my hunting buddies roll their eyes. These are the same guys who carry plastic guns in super magnum cartridges to hunt in woods so think that they cant see tomorrow. Theyre also the same ones that wear different cammo patterns, and not only when they go into the woods; but thats another story and we cant always pick how our friends dress???

Back to the project, Im toying with shortening a full length muzzleloader (preferably a double rifle but maybe a SxS shotgun). I know the shotgun wont be regulated (heck Im not really sure a double muzzleloading rifle is regulated). My "hope" is that regulation would be minute of a Boar at say 50m. Im thinking 16-18 inches seems right. Im thinking 18" would be a good place to start if I wanted to try full length inserts in a cartridge shotgun.

Ive also been considering a few cartridges incase I move from a muzzleloader to a cartridge gun (some current production and some "up graded"). For starters 45-70 seems so obvious, its almost boring. I thought maybe 38-55 (or possibly 375 win; but I like the idea of BP cartridges. Then I started wondering about what could be done with 410 brass loaded like a HOT 45LC and a rifled barrel?

At this point its just a scheme bouncing around in my head. I only know, that I dont know what I dont know. So encourage me and point me in the right direction or tell me it cant be done and encourage me all the more

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (04/01/21 02:57 AM)

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26499
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348800 - 04/01/21 05:01 AM

Pretty sure Pedersoli mount the bores parallel and hopes for the best. I got the .58 I had to shoot into the same small group at 50 yards using round balls, thus it shot fine to 100. With slugs, however, it shot a foot apart at 50 & no load brought them closer. In other words, it was useless with slugs.

According to Forsyth, some English makers prior to 1860, thought regulation meant building the barrels in parallel.
His contention was that they should be regulated by adjusting the dimensions that when joined, would show crossing, but in firing the recoil would then make them shoot parallel.
He noted that with a gun that did not regulate, that is to shoot parallel, to sight the rifle for the most accurate barrel, and at least have one barrel to trust, learning to hold off for the other, poor barrel.
At one time I wanted to rifle the very tight chokes of a SxS .410 shotgun, but did not have "one" to lay with and my buddy did not want to offer his as it would then to TOTALLY useless for potting birds.
I thought with light cast pistol bullets in the 200gr. range and using 3" hulls & black powder, it would make a dandy deer rifle, about like a .40/82 Winchester, or 40/90 Sharps, but with lighter bullets. I did not even get around to finding what a hull would hold, but likely close to 90gr.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
.375 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 911
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #348811 - 04/01/21 08:17 AM

The only 410 brass I have found was 2" brass. If you had a good supply of 3' brass, a bp rifle would be fun.
In the 1950s, I used 2" Alcan 410 brass filled with 3f and .44 lead ball in an old 410, and it was great fun to shoot but really not a "tack driver" (unless the tacks were really close).
I think a 375W or 444M would be great. You could shoot bp for fun and likely deer hunt with bp loads. Using bp, both should be similar in performance to a 360 bpe.

--------------------
RB

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle [Re: 85lc]
      #348816 - 04/01/21 12:06 PM

I had heard the same about muzzleloaders not being regulated. Im OK if the barrels are parallel. At the kind of distances Im intending to use this, I suspect it will be fine. Likewise, IF (big if), I can get one barrel to shoot true, then I can compensate for the other. Again I see this as pretty much a 50-100m gun, with emphasis on the 50 side.

At this point I really have no preference for round ball or conical. Neither do I see much difference between a 58cal Minie ball or 20ga round at the distances Im imagining.

IF again big if, I move to a cartridge, and assuming I can find a rifled 410 full length insert; Im actually toying with using 460S&W brass as a longer than 45LC and shorter than 410 case.

I just bought what seems like a lifetime supply of Alcan 410 brass. I havent measured it recently; but I thought it was 2 1/2 inches. The problem I was told with the Alcan brass, is that they used a pre 209 primer, which is a tad smaller. I have a few of the smaller primers. The guy I bought the brass from said some 209s would squeeze in and a 15/64s drill bit would open them up to 209 size???

The 460 brass is 1.8" so it will fit with a bit of "free bore" jump. My question is how will that free bore effect shooting AND how much BP can I fit in a 460 case? I had a crimping tool made for 410 which also works with the 460; BUT if I dont have to roll a crimp over a ball and only use a thin over powder wad, I should be able to get a good bit of BP. Im not looking for magnum loads, just suitable for Deer and Hogs.

38-55 (375 Win) is another option but I dont have any brass, and given todays issues with ammo, Im hesitant to seek a cartridge that is loaded only sporatically in good times.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348817 - 04/01/21 12:34 PM

Might fuel your interest.

https://hoveysknivesofchina.com/2011/07/...iger-pistols-h/

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #348825 - 05/01/21 12:12 AM

Quote:

Might fuel your interest.

https://hoveysknivesofchina.com/2011/07/...iger-pistols-h/



YES thank you. Im pretty sure in that article he used just the pistol. I wonder if he might have liked it more IF it had a stock?

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39234
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348837 - 05/01/21 04:39 AM

A Howdahing Moment! Two pages including rifles.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=337609&an=&page=0&vc=1

Howdah Rifle?

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=283425&an=&page=0&vc=1

Howdah you like this? Westley Richards .375 x 2½" w/16" bbls

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=231484&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

DANCING WITH THE FAT LADY
http://www.marrakai-adventure.com.au/GreenerStory.html

LAST DANCE WITH THE FAT LADY
http://www.marrakai-adventure.com.au/H_LastDance.html

Nice buff with the .577 Light Nitro
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=220087&an=&page=0&vc=1

First Hunt with Fat Lady
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=231809&an=&page=0&vc=1

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #348841 - 05/01/21 05:00 AM

Thanks guys. It looks like the Pedersoli stock isnt available. So I just might have to move onto a shortened ML or the cartridge version sooner than later. I really didnt like the idea of barrels THAT short anyway....

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26499
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #348842 - 05/01/21 05:06 AM

Remington 9 1/2's are smallest of the LR primers I think.
With Remington T/U, might be hard to find in the future.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 604
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #348853 - 05/01/21 10:19 AM

Quote:

Remington 9 1/2's are smallest of the LR primers I think.
With Remington T/U, might be hard to find in the future.



If youre referring to primers for the Alcan brass shot shells, I think they use G57 primers. They "look" like 209's but have a slightly smaller diameter. The 460SW brass uses Large Rifle primers. The Alcan brass shells are 2 1/2" as are the Magtec shells (which use pistol primers). The 460 cases are 1.8"

I just ordered a set of rifled inserts in 45LC with a 2 1/2" chamber, (so I can use 45LC, 460 brass, and 410 shells). I wont load to 460 pressures but Ill use the brass for a "455 BPE". I just made that up. (Im open to other suggestions?)...

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (05/01/21 10:21 AM)

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26499
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Short(er) Barrel Double Rifle [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #348892 - 06/01/21 06:01 AM

I would estimate the .460 case, at 1.8" holds 62gr. 3F GOEX BP. poured into an unsized case from my horn. If tapped to settle or a long drop tube used, then 1/10" compression it would hold about a 250gr. bullet., with a shallowly seated cast bullet. The free bore will allow that & likely allow a longer, heavier bullet. It will not, however be an express (high vel) round, but will have enough power for deer.
My Sharps has a 1.9" chamber with 3/8" freebore. I load a 525gr. RN cast bullet with 61.0gr. BP. I haven't chronographed this load, but I have tang sight, sight settings to 600 meters. I won the long range event at Rendezvous with this rifle & load, mostly offhand shooting, a few standing or sitting cross stick shots.
There were 25 shots & I hit 22 of them. Range finders allowed, but ranges were marked - some incorrectly. Longest shot was 650meters, shortest shot was 18 meters at a golf ball laying on the ground. All the rest of the targets were steel.
Oops, bit of crowing going on there.
So - 61gr. or 62gr. of powder will work. I suspect 1,150fps with the 525gr. bullet - 30" bl.
That load and a 300gr. bullet should be making about 1,300fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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