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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Woldan
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CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle
      #348351 - 23/12/20 06:59 AM

Just wanted to show you my entry into the world of the big bores, because it makes me so happy! Found this CZ 602 for half a grand with 30 rounds of RWS ammunition, could not pass it up! Barrel like new, no rust but peep sight missing. Built in 72.
Can't think of anything better than a Mauser magnum action under the Christmas tree! Also, its amazing how smoooooooth this Mauser action is!

Are there any tips and tricks or things to be aware of with this model? One thing I have not found out yet is how to unscrew the firing pin.






Edited by Woldan (23/12/20 07:03 AM)


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Wayne59
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Woldan]
      #348358 - 23/12/20 10:12 AM

you did alright. What cartridge is your gun chambered for.

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Woldan
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #348359 - 23/12/20 10:52 AM

Quote:

you did alright. What cartridge is your gun chambered for.




Thank you! - Its chambered in the lovely .375 H&H.

The only thing I had to do was to remove a tiny bit of wood in the barrel channel, the stock was slightly touching the barrel on one side (near the end of the stock) but not the other. I also polished the bolt and oiled the entire stock inside and outside, last time it was oiled was probably when it left the factory back in the 70's.


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Daryl_S
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Woldan]
      #348366 - 23/12/20 01:29 PM

Nice - it looks close to mine, but mine was a BRNO & made in 71. Yours appears to have been restocked - or, where's the Euro stock?

ZKK 602 in .375. Mine was .358 originally, but I obtained a brand new .375H&H barrel for it that went straight on, sights came straight up and headspace was spot-on as well.
Mine also had the peep sight, I see yours is missing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #348370 - 23/12/20 02:09 PM

Nice Santa Claus delivery. A good find and for 500 $ E or ?, damned cheap.

I was hoping for a SIG P320. Will have a look at one later today I hope, but not for Christmas.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Woldan
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #348383 - 23/12/20 09:50 PM

Quote:

Nice - it looks close to mine, but mine was a BRNO & made in 71. Yours appears to have been restocked - or, where's the Euro stock?

ZKK 602 in .375. Mine was .358 originally, but I obtained a brand new .375H&H barrel for it that went straight on, sights came straight up and headspace was spot-on as well.
Mine also had the peep sight, I see yours is missing.



.358 Norma Magnum? I saw one in that caliber once.
Where did you find a good .375 replacement barrel for the 602? That's lucky, doubly so with the perfect headspace! About the stock, I thought this WAS the Euro stock?

Quote:

Nice Santa Claus delivery. A good find and for 500 $ E or ?, damned cheap.

I was hoping for a SIG P320. Will have a look at one later today I hope, but not for Christmas.




Yes, 500 Euros + 90 the Ammunition, (Euros and Dollars are basically interchangeable now). I did not even try to haggle, just BAM - bought it right away.

I almost got the SIG P320 a while ago when I went shopping for a new service pistol, absolutely loved how it handled, pointed and looked, excellent gun - but I still chose the Glock 17.
Maybe its patriotism, but I just love Glocks. The 320 looks a bit better I have to admit though.

Edited by Woldan (23/12/20 10:07 PM)


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93x64mm
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Woldan]
      #348385 - 23/12/20 10:43 PM

Woldan
nice 602 that you've picked up - perhaps you might be able to source an old peep our your way, but they are as rare as hens teeth here in Oz.
Hopefully someone may be able chime in with drawings to make one - but it will take a lot to do so as they are pretty intricate.

Bolt strip - video down a bit
https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/threads/brno-zkk-bolt-disassembly.37115/

Exploded parts list - not the peep one unfortunately!
http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/TechFiles/Brno-ZKK-602-Exploded-View-Parts-List-A4.pdf

NE previous posts about ZKK peeps
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....e=0&fpart=1
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Number=169817

Hope this helps
93x64mm


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Woldan]
      #348388 - 23/12/20 11:01 PM

Quote:



Quote:

Nice Santa Claus delivery. A good find and for 500 $ E or ?, damned cheap.

I was hoping for a SIG P320. Will have a look at one later today I hope, but not for Christmas.




I almost got the SIG P320 a while ago when I went shopping for a new service pistol, absolutely loved how it handled, pointed and looked, excellent gun - but I still chose the Glock 17.
Maybe its patriotism, but I just love Glocks. The 320 looks a bit better I have to admit though.




No P320's in stock and twice the price I was told they were. But looked at two P226's instead and really want one of those. Second hand, so more affordable to me. Still more than a new P320.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Woldan
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #348389 - 23/12/20 11:26 PM

Quote:

Woldan
Hope this helps
93x64mm




Thank you, certainly does! Also - AH! Stupid me did not realize you had to push the firing pin disassembly button on an *already* cocked bolt, does not work WHEN cocking it. Just got it out, super easy.

As for the missing peep sight, I will try to use the express sights first and see what happens, the front blade looks actually fine enough to be able to hit something with it at 50 & 100. I do have several rifles with peeps, maybe the express sights will become a welcome new challenge.

Quote:


No P320's in stock and twice the price I was told they were. But looked at two P226's instead and really want one of those. Second hand, so more affordable to me. Still more than a new P320.




Twice? Now that's unfortunate. If you could get a used P226 close to the same price as one of those overpriced 320, maybe that's worth jumping on - The all metal frame of the P226 is very nice, those are sweet solid pistols. Considered getting one too, but never found a well priced one, with my pistol budget at around 800-900. Also a reason why I got the Glock, brand new under 600, hard to argue with that.

Edited by Woldan (24/12/20 12:07 AM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Woldan]
      #348405 - 24/12/20 05:02 AM

Quote:


.358 Norma Magnum? I saw one in that caliber once.
Where did you find a good .375 replacement barrel for the 602? That's lucky, doubly so with the perfect headspace! About the stock, I thought this WAS the Euro stock?




I bought the .358 NM ZKK602 in 1972 in Smithers, B.C. from the Family Ski and Sport Shop. In 1973 I was transferred to Surrey, where I started shooting 3 position competition, using the .358 with the peep and front bead along with cast bullets.
In 1974, a Hungarian fellow, short and stocky, bought a .375 H&H BRNO ZKK602, "just for the action" to build a .505 Barnes Supreme on the action.
He had Ian Dingwll (gun smith) remove the barrel. I bought the barrel from the Hungarian fellow for $100.00 and paid Ian $25.00 I think, to remove my "old" barrel and replace it with the new one. I had wanted a .375H&H when I originally bought the .358 but none were available.
I did shoot the 280gr. Speer (or Hornady) bullets in the .358 while I was shooting it & even experimented using .30M1 Carbine cases for bullet jackets in that rifle. Never shot a big game animal with them, but did shoot a number of coyotes out on Hungry Hill.(Grouse Mountain between Smithers and Houston)Killed those dead.
I bought the Lyman mould for the .375 and used that for a year in 3 position shooting, with the peep and made "Sharpshooter" qualification (it's only the second step up the ladder)
After that, I had a real match rifle made up & got serious about 3-postion shooting.
IIRC, I used to call the Euro Stock the Humpty-back camel.

This is very close to the Euro stock design that my ZKK had as well as a similar stock now on the CZ m527's in the Eruo style.



They did get a little weird with the pistol grip, but the butt stock is where the Euro styling is.



I should note, that both of those BRNO barrels shot sub 1/2" groups off the bags, with jacketed ammo.
I used 70gr. IMR4064 in the .375 with 270gr. Hornady Spire points. That was the old "Go To" load for the H&H ctg., back in the 1970's.
Both barrels shot just barely at and odd time under 1" with cast bullets at 100yards.
The .358 was particularly accurate using 61.0gr. or 62gr. IMR3031 and 250gr. Speer bullets. They oft-times even beat 3/8" at 100. Best group for 5 shots was .251". I see that load is no longer listed in the manuals. I ran a 12X Ruko(I think it was) scope on the rifle. Cheap, but never let me down.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #348408 - 24/12/20 05:24 AM

Quote:

Nice Santa Claus delivery. A good find and for 500 $ E or ?, damned cheap.

I was hoping for a SIG P320. Will have a look at one later today I hope, but not for Christmas.




Good Luck with that and Merry Christmas..



--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Woldan
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #348413 - 24/12/20 08:59 AM

Hah, 3 position shooting with a .375H&H sounds like a blast - literally - though I think I would be too scared to shoot a .375 from prone, even with milder loads. I do a lot of prone shooting since I'm an avid muzzle loader shooter, I shoot a Pedersoli .451 Tryon Creedmoor with 550 grain bullets sized to .451 at about 1200 fp/s. But that's plenty enough prone lead slingin for me.

Quote:

I used to call the Euro Stock the Humpty-back camel




I do recognize the stock shape, its what we call a Schweinsrücken (hog back), it is supposed to be the do-it-all shape that allows both proper cheek rest with optics and irons. At least thats the theory. Most CZ 550's sold around here do have that kind of stock shape. I'm happy my 602 has the traditional straight stock setup though, heavy recoiling rifles with Schweinsrücken stocks tend to slap me HARD in the cheek when going low for irons.


Quote:

I used 70gr. IMR4064 in the .375 with 270gr. Hornady Spire points. That was the old "Go To" load for the H&H ctg., back in the 1970's.



Since I'm soon going to develop loads for the .375 - what case life did you get with your reloads? Just wondering, the only belted magnum I ever reloaded was the .300WM, but I read that due to the shallow shoulder of the .375 case life is relatively short.

Edited by Woldan (24/12/20 12:36 PM)


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93x64mm
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Woldan]
      #348449 - 25/12/20 08:49 AM

Buy quality brass like Norma or RWS, neck size only after initial firing & you should have at least 10 firing per case easy! You will have to watch the case length as it will stretch due to its rather tapering case; take a note of your smallest length case in your batch after first firing & keep that length as a reference - trim to suit.
There should be tons of reload data on the web for the .375H&H, even the reduced loads side of things.
Hopefully you'll get someone to chime in for those.
What powders & projectiles are you thinking of using?


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Daryl_S
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #348453 - 25/12/20 11:05 AM

Exactly - set up your FL die to only partially size the body and just barely all of the neck, but not quite.
If you don't push the shoulder back each time, your brass will last a LOT longer.
The cases should be annealed about every 4 to 5 shots or so.
I would suggest they should last upwards of 20 shots each, if cared for.
The reason for partial sizing only.
Belted magnum chambers are usually long in the body length as the case supposedly headspaces on the belt.
Due to this over length body, once a case is fired, it stretches forward at the web to 'fill' the chamber.
If you bump the shell holder against the die, you will likely push the shoulder back down again (short die body). Reloading and firing again, again stretches the case at the web - thus the case get thinner and thinner at the web and case life of 4 shots or less is common with many belted magnums. This is less of a problem with rimless cases, as chambers are held to tighter standards as the body is the headspace for that style of ctg. In Europe the headspace laws are very similar to the SAMMI suggestions of .006" maximum.
That means with a belted case, only the distance from the base to the front of the belt needs to be within this limit. The body does not matter. Many mfg'ers are sloppy with the body measurement on the reamers. They do not care about handloading- especially if they sell ammunition as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Woldan
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #348479 - 26/12/20 06:46 AM

Thank you all for your help, this information will prove very helpful for me in the coming months when I will start experimenting with the big 375. neck sizing only sounds like a very good idea with this belted magnum, as does checking length after every firing. I have little experience with annealing cases, did that with my 45-70 with some success (reduced case sootiness somewhat) but never with anything high pressure.

I just got my reloading supplies, dies from Hornady, brass and 300 grain RN bullets from PPU. According to my experiences PPU brass and bullets are not super high quality but absolutely serviceable, I use them for my 7x57, 8x57 and 7.5x55 with irons all the time with respectable results.

As for loads, right now I have only one suitable powder for it, that's Lovex S070. Since pretty much every shooting range is closed due to the annoying pandemic right now I will send the loads to the proof house instead and let them analyze pressure, speed and consistency of my reloads.

My first handloaded .375s. I chose an OAL of 3.527 - at 3.543 the projectiles start to kiss the lands. I cycled them a couple times to check feeding. Have to use non-magnum standard CCI primers though, due to the current events the rarer magnum rifle primers are very hard to find.
Maybe the non-magnums will work well enough, I had a .300WM once that absolutely hated magnum primers and would only group well with standard primers.



Also - fun fact - the PPU 300 grain round nose bullets have the exact dimensions of a 124 grain 9mm round, you can even load the projectiles into a Glock 9mm magazine. Things you find out when you are fooling around with reloading supplies.

Edited by Woldan (26/12/20 06:57 AM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Woldan]
      #348480 - 26/12/20 08:20 AM

Sounds good Woldan.
If the powder is an intermediate burning powder, it might work just fine with LR primers. I have no experience with that particular powder. Hornady dies are very nice. Their expander buttons in the FL die are quite possibly, the best made of any dies. Love them, as I do their seating dies. I am now using 6 different sets (calibres) of Hornady dies.
Your seating depth sounds just great.
At .375H&H velocities of the usual 2,450fps to 2,560fps, the PPU bullets will likely work just fine. They looks very similar to the Hornady 300gr. RN, except for not having a cannelure.
Best of luck with your new rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Homer
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #348505 - 27/12/20 08:34 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Donuts!

D'oh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Rule303
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #348510 - 27/12/20 09:57 AM

Also if you can get a Lee Collet neck sizing die and remove the expander ball from you full length/neck only sizing die. The expander ball stretches the case way more than the firings do. I have miked numerous calibres before and after the expander ball has been through them. They all stretch but the shallower the neck angle the greater the grow. Yes I have the hell lubed out of the expander ball and inside the neck. The better the lubing the less stretch but they still stretch.

I suspect the elliptical ball like the Hornady one will produce less case neck stretching but have not experimented to find out.


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Daryl_S
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Rule303]
      #348516 - 27/12/20 11:49 AM

That is why I like the Hornady dies, Rule303. Not only extremely hard but smoothly shaped as well, without the abrupt corners as on the green box dies.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Rule303
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #348524 - 27/12/20 05:51 PM

Daryl, right now I only have one set of Hornady Dies, I have both light green and darker green box dies one set of Lyman and a few sets of the Australian made Simplex Dies and Lee. Suffice to say the RCBS are my least favourite dies. The Simplex are styled on the Lyman and have a short bearing surface on the expander button but prefer the Hornady set up.

Seems when ever I am after Dies there are no Hornady in the cartridge I am after available. I have gone to the Lee Colet dies for the 375H&H and trying to find them in 22Hornet and 303B.............. I have to stop experimenting with reloading and just settle on what I have. Be far cheaper.


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Daryl_S
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Rule303]
      #348539 - 28/12/20 07:01 AM

I know what you mean but sometimes you have to "Look Around". At last count, I had 42 sets of dies:

Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Hornady, Pacific, Bonanza, Wilson, Redding & Buffalo Arms, with quite a few green box dies and yes, they are the least favourite.

I even have a couple dies & sets I made from others, specifically a Hornady-type seater for .375/9.3 (before I got Hornady dies in .376 Styer)and .17 cal. as well as case forming dies I made/altered. It's interesting to look back in "time" to what cranked me up/motivated me to experiment.

I also converted a die to take the 1/2" sizing button neck sizing inserts Wilson & Redding, in both .17 and .22 cal.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Rule303
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #348553 - 28/12/20 07:35 PM

Forgot the set of Bonanza dies. First full size set I bought, for that greatest of great cartridges, the might 270 Win.

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Woldan
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Rule303]
      #348784 - 03/01/21 04:09 AM

So, I shot my .375 for the first time, with RWS H-mantel, which is supposed to be a hot load with 300 grains around 2590 fps. I was amazed how little recoil I felt, it was even less than any of my double barrel SxS shotguns with standard loads. I attribute this to a good stock design, good butt pad and the relatively heavy barrel of the CZ.

I'm really happy with it, lots of horsepower in a super controllable package, now I truly understand why the .375 is such a popular round.


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Daryl_S
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Re: CZ 602 - Big bore entry rifle [Re: Woldan]
      #348788 - 03/01/21 06:52 AM

I agree, an 11 pound .375H&H doesn't kick much, with a well designed stock.
Mine was much of a push, not a sharp jab, I felt.

2,590fps is indeed a warm load, with a 300gr. bullet.

In 1912, the .,375 ran 2,600fps with the high velocity 270gr. and 2,400fps with the 300gr. bullets, soft's and solids.

BTW - I chronographed a .375H&H ZKK602 with Winchester Factory 300gr. SilverTip ammo a couple years ago and it clocked 2,474fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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