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spikey
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Reged: 28/12/20
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Loc: NZ
Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60
      #348549 - 28/12/20 04:20 PM

Hi all,

I recently bought a Mannlicher-Schönauer M1952 "Stalker" rifle. It was made in 1956 and I'm looking forward to shooting it next year.

However, it's fitted with a pre-WW2 Kahles H/4 x 60 scope with a crosshair reticule on (presumably) factory quick-detachable mounts and I was hoping someone could answer a few questions about them. Sadly, at the moment I cannot take photos, so I hope you will forgive my long-winded descriptions.

The forward mount pivots horizontally to the left and the bridge it attaches to is fitted to the front of the chamber. The pivot is a small stud on the left of the front mount.

The rear mount fits just above the bolt-release catch and has an oblong steel button which you push forward to allow the rear mount to be attached or removed. There are also small bolts/screws on either side of the stud that attaches to the rear mount of the rifle. I think these are for adjusting for windage.

There is also a number engraved on the underside of the forward mount under the scope - 5420 - which is not the same as the rifle's serial number.

Anyway, I'd be most grateful if someone would be able to answer the following questions:

Do you think the mounts were installed at the factory and, if so, does the number 5420 tell us anything?

Do the mounts have a brand or model name?

The Kahles scope can be adjusted for elevation only: the brass turret has a "1" and then a gap and then a "2", followed by a larger gap and then a "3". Does anyone know what the increments are for when I sight in the rifle?

Finally, the scope cannot be adjusted for windage; I assume this can be done using the rear mount. Is anyone able to advise me how to do it and how any adjustments would change the point of impact?

I'm sorry for the tedious explanations, but I'm hoping someone out there is able to help me! It's a lovely rifle and I'm keen to use it. Thank you all very much!

Edited by spikey (28/12/20 04:21 PM)


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Louis
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: spikey]
      #348569 - 29/12/20 12:39 AM

Welcome to the Forum, Spikey.

According to your explanation, it looks like your rifle is fitted with Steyr quick detachable mounts, which were marketed in the post-WW2 period, I don’t know exactly when but most likely in the 50s. These scope mounts were - I presume, factory-mounted on new rifles but most likely also sold as spare parts and installed by rifle smiths worldwide; I have similar scope mounts mounted on my MS Model 1903, which was proofed in 1926. These scope mounts are extremely easy to use and much reliable with regards to retaining scope accuracy.

Below are some photos of the mounts on my Model 1903 (but I have found no serial number marking, as you found on your own mounts) as well as of an old Stoeger calatog previously provided by fellow forum member Rothammer.

Front base:


Rear base :


Front mount, with pivot :


Read mount, with windage adjustment screw visible at the bottom:


With regards to windage adjustment, you will find a small screw for this purpose on the rear scope mount; more info on how to proceed for adjustments is available on the bottom right corner of the Stoeger catalog’s third page, see “Sight corrections”.







Good hunting with your new rifle, of which we would welcome photos; by the way, in which caliber is she?

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: Louis]
      #348585 - 29/12/20 04:13 AM

Quote:

Welcome to the Forum, Spikey.


Below are... as well as of an old Stoeger calatog previously provided by fellow forum member Rothammer.






Though I know more about the pre WW2 models and accessories than of the later issues I agree with everything in Louis' post above.

Here'a a couple more images:




Above from the 1959 Stoeger catalog, below from 1958:





I thought I had more, but I lost a lot of images last year.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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spikey
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #348604 - 29/12/20 07:40 AM

Hi Louis and Rothhammer1,

Thank you very much for your help - I am so grateful. Since buying the rifle I've struggled to find out anything about the mounts, although Kahles were most helpful when I emailed them, dating the scope to the pre-WW2 period. The scope mount *is* the "Steyr Quick Detachable Top Mount" in the Stoeger catalogue you posted. By the way, I used to have a 1957 Stoeger "Shooter's Bible", but lost it years ago. I think I'll replace it!

My apologies - I forgot to mention it's chambered for .30-06 Springfield. The design of the stock is what I'd term European, with a slim fore-end and a black tip (wood or plastic - I'm not sure - perhaps someone could let me know); and a discreet cheek-piece. The only thing missing is the hood for the front sight. I re-touched the red paint on the side safety-catch and the corresponding mark on the receiver with tiny drops of red enamel-paint.

The "5420" is on the underside of the front mount that remains attached to the scope. Its meaning is a mystery: it neither matches the rifle's serial number, nor the batch number on the scope. Perhaps it was done by the gunsmith who attached it?

The condition of the rifle and scope is interesting: at some point the stock has had to be professionally repaired and there is a crack in one of the scope lenses. One of my tasks for the New Year is to get the scope professionally restored. There was some minor surface rust on the scope tube and the occasional bit on the barrel, but I removed that without damaging the blueing. I also had to remove decades of congealed oil from various nooks and crannies. I had a gunsmith re-crown the muzzle, just in case, and secure the sling-swivels, which were loose. I've also been applying daily thin coats of boiled linseed-oil to the stock and then rubbing it 24 hours later.

I was also fortunate in being able to buy a second-hand copy of J. B. Wood's 'The Gun Digest Book of Firearms Assembly/Disassembly Part 4: Centerfire Rifles' for $10 at a local gun-shop!

Finally, do you know of anyone who might be able to tell me what the elevation-adjustment increments are for a pre-WW2 Kahles H/4 x 60? I've searched online using various search terms, but with no success.

Once again, thank you both for your expert help and advice; I'll let you know how it shoots when I manage to get to a range.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: spikey]
      #348633 - 29/12/20 06:44 PM

Quote:

Hi Louis and Rothhammer1,

Thank you very much for your help... I used to have a 1957 Stoeger "Shooter's Bible", but lost it years ago. I think I'll replace it!

..it's chambered for .30-06 Springfield. The design of the stock is what I'd term European, with a slim fore-end and a black tip (wood or plastic - I'm not sure - perhaps someone could let me know); and a discreet cheek-piece. The only thing missing is the hood for the front sight.

The "5420" is on the underside of the front mount that remains attached to the scope. Its meaning is a mystery: it neither matches the rifle's serial number, nor the batch number on the scope. Perhaps it was done by the gunsmith who attached it?...

I was also fortunate in being able to buy a second-hand copy of J. B. Wood's 'The Gun Digest Book of Firearms Assembly/Disassembly Part 4: Centerfire Rifles' for $10 at a local gun-shop!

Finally, do you know of anyone who might be able to tell me what the elevation-adjustment increments are for a pre-WW2 Kahles H/4 x 60? I've searched online using various search terms, but with no success...

...I'll let you know how it shoots when I manage to get to a range.




Hello again, Spikey.

First, let me correct an oversight on my part and welcome you to Nitro Express Forums (as had Louis).

When I initially found this 'site, with its dedicated Mannlicher thread, I knew I was in the right place.
Please tell other MS owners, enthusiasts, and other interested parties about NE, as much of the other 'information' you'll find on 'gun forums' (particularly U.S. based) will range from somewhat inaccurate to pure garbage. I began posting on some of them a few years back to replace myth and damaging advice with facts and knowledge which was appreciated by some, vilified by others.

These days I post here and to Africa Hunting (you may want to give this one a good read: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/ma...velocity.47277/ ) and have left a lot of information at The Firearms Forum before being 'banned' for not dancing around a moderator's ego: https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threadloom/search?query=mannlicher&tab=3908 . Beware, however, of well intended but ill informed posts on that 'site (and others), though their member Sharps 4590 (also a member here) is informed and casts bullets for his M1908 (8X56).

Your .30-'06 chambering lets you out of the difficulties of making your own cartridges, as many of us must do for MS obsolete calibers (mine is 9.5X57), so you're fortunate there.

Stock

The Mannlicher Schoenauer was introduced at the Paris Worlds Fair of 1900, in fine 'sporting rifle' form, but was always intended to be a military arm and was marketed to compete with the Mauser 98 'head on'. Prototype models of M1900 were produced, in rather small numbers, in 'sporting' and in military formats and shopped to various ordnance departments. Largely due to its unit cost, the only major military customer was Greece.

The 'sporting rifle' prototypes had caught the eye of some top tier British gunmakers and soon 'bespoke' versions of the MS were being crafted by Westley Richards, Gibbs, and the like several of which were built from highly finished military examples.

With the Greek contract secured for a 1903 revision of the military model, the Mannlicher Schoenauer entered production at Oesterr Waffenfabriks Geshellschaft Steyr in 1905 with the Y1903 which would be followed, through the years, by Y1903/14, Y1903/27 (Breda), 'System 1930', and some smaller run variants.


M1900 prototype, military (note hand guard and thick stock)


Mannlicher Schoenauer Y1903 'Greek' variants

With full production of the military contract underway Steyr also produced their own sporting versions, much the same as Mauser did with their 'Oberndorf' models. The M1900 had incorporated a unique MS proprietary cartridge, the now famous 6.5X54. Civilian production would begin with the M1903, also in 6.5X54, and the M1905 in a new MS proprietary 9X56 cartridge.

The pre WW2 Mannlicher Schoenauer sporting arms left the Steyr factory with one of three styles of stock, a stutzen (full stocked carbine), a half stocked rifle, or a dandy little take down system they seem to have pilfered from Westley Richards (or vice-versa).

Here, in the 1939 Stoeger, are represented the original stock styles:





As the Anschluss (Nazi occupstion of Austria) took effect in 1938, production of sporting arms at Steyr was curtailed, but did continue.

When production of the Mannlicher Schoenauer resumed in 1950 the 'Take Down Model' was dropped as stutzen and half stocked rifle styles continued on essentially the prewar profile, though without the trap door buttplate of prewar years.




From 1954 - Single or double set triggers had been available from the beginning on all but the Take Down Model, which had the single trigger. Notice also the 'shotgun style slide safety'. MS safeties were undergoing revision at the time the M1952 was in production.

Steyr needed to court the U.S. post WW2 market and Yanks liked scopes which led to changes in the comb area of post WW2 Mannlicher Schoenauers.

About 1956, the 'Monte Carlo', or MC stock was introduced with a high, sculpted, comb more suitable for use with a rifle scope.



For those who preferred the previous type, they continued on as the 'GK' option:


Mannlicher Schoenauer GK

By 1961, an 'MCA' or Monte Carlo All Purpose was offered as an intermediate height compromise for scope or iron sight use.



Your MS should have a model designation on the front bridge. If it is marked 'Mod. 1952' it came originally with a straight comb stock as there was only that variety for that model.

Your stock tip (I'll presume it's a half stock?), if original, should be buffalo (not bison) horn. The only plastic to be found on a genuine Mannlicher Schoenauer was in the white line spacers that were a passing fad of the 1950s-60s and, perhaps, stock varnish.

A sight hood was optional for the MS, so it's not like you're actually 'missing' one. I'd love to find an original (or even accurate repop) of the 'prewar' version for my M1910 Take Down.

One 'hard and fast' rule about Mannlicher Schoenauers is that there seem to be few hard and fast rules about Mannlicher Schoenauers. There were custom options available throughout production of all models and anomalies abound.

When disassembling your MS, use proper fitting (thin bladed) drivers!
Instructions for disassembly (scroll down): https://www.mannlicher.org/mannlicher-characteristics.html




If you have further questions (you will), you now know where to come for answers. There are several members here with hands on experience regarding the Model M1952 and any other MS about which you may be curious. Member Kuduae is an authoritative source of information regarding any European sporting arm of the Twentieth Century and then some.

Enjoy!

P.S.:
I have absolutely no idea about the '5420' marking on your scope mount, but by your description and the model involved it's likely a 'factory' installation.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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spikey
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #348634 - 29/12/20 07:57 PM

Hi Rothhammer1,

Thank you very much for your advice - I have certainly come to the right place! However, I don't know anyone else who owns a M-S; most hunters nowadays seem to prefer synthetic and stainless.

Just to clarify: the rifle is marked "M 1952" (as well as "Stalker" on the base of the magazine) and is a half-stock rifle with a straight comb and cheek-piece. Sadly, the front scope base covers much of the manufacturer's details.

Although I'd have preferred a rifle in .243 Win or .308 Win, beggars can't be choosers, and I've always wanted a M-S, but had never been able to afford the prices. This .30-06 M-S was affordable for me.

Still, there are low-recoil .30-06 loads firing a ca. 120 gr soft-point deer bullet at ca. 2600 fps, which seem ideal for hunting the smaller species of deer. Once I get hold of some, I'll take the rifle to the range and let you know how she shoots. I don't want to subject this fine old rifle - or my shoulder - to a sustained .30-06 150 gr, 3000 fps full-house bashing.

By the way, what sort of accuracy should I reasonably expect at 100m?

Just need to get that scope fixed now!

Thanks once again,

Spikey.


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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: spikey]
      #348635 - 29/12/20 09:21 PM

Quote:


...Just to clarify: the rifle is marked "M 1952" (as well as "Stalker" on the base of the magazine)


By the way, what sort of accuracy should I reasonably expect at 100m?






I'd like to see a photo of the 'Stalker' marking on your magazine plate. I've never heard of such a mark and wonder if it was applied by or for a retailer as Stoeger retailed MS were stamped during that period.



My M1910 (.375 Nitro Express Rimless / 9.5X57) has a steel buttplate and takes 42 grains of IMR behind a 270 grain bullet. I've never been bothered by its recoil, I just hold her very tight to the shoulder while sighting and 'get behind it'.

Accuracy?
Prepare to be impressed. You'll be shooting a Mannlicher Schoenauer!

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #348636 - 29/12/20 09:51 PM



European Steyr Brochure, English language version:



--------------------
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Louis
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #348640 - 30/12/20 03:13 AM

Spikey, 30-06 is a much versatile and hunting-proven caliber that will allow you to engage all game species encountered in NZ. With regards to accuracy, one should expect sub MOA groupings at 100 yards/meters, however it's always best to test initially several bullet types and loads in order to determine which one(s) suit best to your barrel in order to obtain the best accuracy.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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spikey
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: Louis]
      #348646 - 30/12/20 07:50 AM

Hi Louis and Rothhammer1,

Thank you for the tips; I'll see what .30-06 ammunition is available and try some out once the scope's been fixed.

Regarding the magazine plate: I'm still unable to take photos, but the bottom of the plate nearest the trigger-guard has the same Steyr logo. However, instead of "STOEGER", the word "STALKER" has been engraved, albeit with less of a pronounced arch. I assume this would have been done for the NZ market, where the British term "deer-stalking" is commonly used, rather than "deer-hunting".

All the best,

Spikey.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: spikey]
      #348659 - 30/12/20 04:02 PM



Stoeger, 1954:



--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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spikey
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #348662 - 30/12/20 06:19 PM

Hi Rothhammer1,

Thank you for the latest Stoeger extract; I've been re-reading the M-S ad in their 1970 edition, which I've just found, after sorting through some old boxes. I think this was the last year the M-S was made.

There's also an article about M-S's written by Sam Fadala in the 1997 'Gun Digest'.

All the best,

Spikey.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: spikey]
      #348663 - 30/12/20 07:10 PM

Quote:

Hi Rothhammer1,

Thank you for the latest Stoeger extract; I've been re-reading the M-S ad in their 1970 edition, which I've just found, after sorting through some old boxes. I think this was the last year the M-S was made.

There's also an article about M-S's written by Sam Fadala in the 1997 'Gun Digest'.

All the best,

Spikey.




The internet has become a treasure trove for hunting images.

I read a Sam Fadala article in Rifle Magazine about that same time (same article?) in which he had fond reminisces of Northern Arizona rabbit and pronghorn hunts with his MS. Living in Winslow at the time, I actually wrote a letter to the editor and enclosed a personal letter to Mr, Fadala inviting him to drop by anytime he was in the area for some Jeepin' and shootin'. He wrote back accepting, but that circumstances at the time prevented his being away from responsibilities.

I have the article, letter, and published reply somewhere.

Mannlicher Schoenauers were built and sold through 1972.

--------------------
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spikey
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #348763 - 02/01/21 11:09 AM

Hi Rothhammer1,

Sam Fadala's article in the 1997 edition of 'Gun Digest' is mainly about the M-S in general, but he does talk about his carbine, a 9 x 56 mm stutzen made in 1921, and using it for hunting whitetail. The article is entitled 'Romance of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer'.

It's a great read!

Spikey.

P.S. Are you (or anyone else) able to suggest who might know what the elevation-adjustment increments on the turret on the pre-WW2 Kahles 4 x 60 scope mean?

Edited by spikey (02/01/21 11:14 AM)


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: spikey]
      #348772 - 02/01/21 08:20 PM

Quote:



P.S. Are you (or anyone else) able to suggest who might know what the elevation-adjustment increments on the turret on the pre-WW2 Kahles 4 x 60 scope mean?




Member Waidmannsheil may have that information.

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spikey
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #348773 - 02/01/21 09:49 PM

Thank you, Rothhammer1. I'll contact him.

Spikey.


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Louis
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: spikey]
      #348783 - 03/01/21 04:07 AM

Spikey, your post has already more than 250 views so I assume that if nobody answered yet your question about zeroing your pre-WW2 Khales 4x60 it is because nobody had an answer; I would therefore suggest to raise the question in the folder "Sporting Equipments", as some fellow members may not be interested in MS rifles and may have not read your post.

As pre-WW2 Austrian rifle scopes are - I assume, technically more or less similar to pre-WW2 German ones, I have pasted below two posts from other forums on the correct way to zero pre-WW2 German rifle scopes; the advices may hopefully apply to your own rifle scope.

http://www.germanguns.com/upload/archive/index.php/t-1304.html
From Axel E (Louis' comment: Axel is Kuduae on the NE Forum)
No, I have never seen a "manual" or "instructions for use" for the Diatal (light alloy tube with mounting rib) and Diasta (26mm steel tube) Hensoldt, later renamed Zeiss (West) series scopes.
As I have worked with and on about a dozen of these, maybe I can give some hints:
• After removing the protective cap you find a black plate, knurled around the edge for adjustment turning. You see four screws holding this plate, three black and one silver. whitie already found out, the silver screw is for locking the adjustment, so keep it backed out until after final zeroing.
• Around the black plate you see a ring with an index mark and either a tiny pin, hole or stud for turning the ring. Most of these rings are of silvery metal, late ones of some plastic. On the underside of the ring there is a stop that limits turning either direction to less than one turn. Apparently, this severely limits adjustment, but it ain't so. If you have turned the adjustment to the stop, loosen the three black screws and turn the ring only back a half turn. Continue sighting in.
• After sighting in the rifle, you may again turn the ring only so the index line on it is opposite the tiny line engraved on the scope tube behind the adjustment turret(s).
• There are neither clicks nor factory index marks (except one). The ring is meant so you may sribe your own reference marks on it. So, sighting in is by trial and error. Turning the adjustments clockwise makes the rifle shoot up/right and vice versa.
• On older Hensoldt Diatal/Diasta scopes the adjustment may be very hard to impossible to turn, especially in cold weather. Cause: Hensoldt once put lots of a grease into the adjustments. This grease often has hardened solid over the years, effectively glueing everything.
• Cure: Remove all four screws. pry out both the top plate and the ring, clean these from all dried gunk. Use toothpicks or so and scrape out all the grease you can get at from the turret. Put a LITTLE drop of oil in there. Reassemble.
• Despite the less than perfect handling of the adjustments these Diatal/Diasta scopes are still unsurpassed optically and mechanically, better than most scopes availble today. I use such 4x scopes almost exclusively for my own hunting. I also use Zeiss Zielvier and Zielsechs scopes sometimes, but these Hensoldts are superior.

http://www.opticstalk.com/hensoldt-diatal-8x52-zeroing_topic43076.html
Instructions for sighting in Zeiss (Hensoldt) riflescopes:
• After mounting a riflescope on a weapon, the gunsmith zeroes the riflescope for a specific range, i.e. the line of sight is aligned with the bore axis of the barrel in such a way that the point of impact and the aiming point coincide at a specific distance.
• As the trajectory is curved, the bore axis and the line of sight form an angle which is dependent on the type of ammunition used and the range. At longer or shorter ranges than the sighting-in distance or when the line of sight is not horizontal (in the mountains), the shooter will aim above or below his target to compensate for the difference in distance.
• If a riflescope is correctly mounted on a weapon, it is generally not necessary to readjust the line of sight relative to the weapon. If a re-adjustment is necessary for special reasons or if a riflescope/weapon combination is to be zeroed for a new range, proceed as follows:

• Unscrew the protective cap (1).
• Only loosen the bright, chrome-plated screw (2). Do not loosen the three dark, painted screws (3)!)
• Using the knurled disc (4), you can now adjust the reticle as required. To correct a high shot, turn the disk (4) counterclockwise.
To correct a low shot, turn the disk (4) clockwise.
• Re-tighten the bright screw (2); do not use force, otherwise the fine thread of the elevation adjustment will be damaged.
• Check the point of impact. If necessary, repeat the procedure as described until the result obtained is satisfactory.
• Loosen the three painted screws (3).
• Turn the graduated ring (5) until its index line is opposite the marking (6). This index allows you to make adjustments of a defined magnitude during sighting in. In addition, this index enables you to find the zero position again if, in special cases, the adjustment was changed. The index can also be used to indicate the reticle adjustments for other ranges and types of ammunition after additional markings for these ranges and types of ammunition have been provided.
• Re-tighten the three screws (3).
• Screw the protective cap (1) back on. Take care not to squash the rubber gasket (7)!. To correct the windage adjustment, proceed in the same manner.
To correct a shot to turn left, turn the disk (4) clockwise.
To correct a shot to the right, turn the disk (4) counterclockwise.
Adjustment range of the reticle in cm/100m ( in./100yds) at one revolution:
• Diasta/Diatal 4x32 100cm/ revolution (36 in./ revolution)
• Diasta/Diatal 6x42 70cm/ revolution (25 in./ revolution)
• Diasta/Diatal 8x32 50cm/ revolution (18 in./ revolution)
• Diavari 1,5-6x42 110cm/ revolution (39 in./ revolution)
• Diavari 2,5-10x52 65cm/ revolution (23 in./ revolution)


Please tell us how it works, and post photos when you can.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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spikey
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Re: Help, please! M-S M1952 scope mounts and Kahles H/4 x 60 [Re: Louis]
      #348786 - 03/01/21 04:37 AM

Hi Louis,

Thank you very much for your help; I'll have a look.

Best wishes,

Spikey.


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