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Hatari
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505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ?
      #51889 - 09/03/06 07:27 PM

Is There a difference between the .505 Gibbs and the .460 Weatrherby on dangerous game ?
I know the ballistics on paper !

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500Nitro
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: Hatari]
      #51890 - 09/03/06 10:44 PM


The 505 Gibbs kills well on Water Buffalo.

IMHO, the original 525gn bullet is light for the calibre
and the 600 grains is a better weight on for the calibre.

I haven't shot anything with a 460 Wby so can't do a direct
comparison myself.

500 Nitro

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hoppdoc
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: Hatari]
      #51891 - 09/03/06 11:16 PM

Shooting solids one would think the larger diameter of the 505 Gibbs would make it preferable.

Prior african lore and dogma of killing ability suggests Weatherby mantra of velocity++ doesn't hold up well on the big tough stuff.I would think their tissues would withstand the transmitted energy of a high velocity "soft" with hydrostatic incapacitation better than straight line penetration x the impact momentum of the larger caliber going to the vitals.

I have read the opposite problem may have happened with the 4 bores shooting lead balls.Great delivery of momentum and horrible superficial injuries but not enough penetration to the vitals for instant kills.

Smokeless powder, solids, 2000+fps velocity seems to be the combination that works the best.This would logically seem to make the 700 nitro better than the 600 as a stopper etc, etc.

I am just going to keep my 470 unless I find can shoot and handle a 500 as well. I believe 577 and up are out of most hunters envelope of tolerance to shoot and ability to make a f/u shot!!



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500Nitro
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #51900 - 10/03/06 12:56 AM


hoppdoc

Can you expand on your thoughts behind
"Shooting solids one would think the larger diameter of the 505 Gibbs would make it preferable."

Their seems to be a difference once you get to 2400 fps ie 458 cal above 2400 as opposed
to 2100 - 2200 but IMHO, if hunters spent as much time practising with the firearm and
learning to shoot better and place shots better with it in the field and less about whether
the velocity is 2150 or 2200, then I think the animals we hunt would be better off.

In alot of instances, the faster you push a SN bullet, the faster it opens up
and the less penetration you get.

Re 700 versus 600, I really don't think you see a lot of difference.

500 Nitro

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hoppdoc
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #51962 - 10/03/06 07:12 AM

A fellow hunter with a degree in fluid dynamics suggests to me that the diameter of the bullet may be proportional to the sensory impact percieved by the target to some finite enlarging bullet diameter where CNS neurons are saturated for a "knock out". Thus 500 is felt more than 458 etc,etc.This is somewhat velocity independent, ie faster bullets with more energy/momentum still dont give more sensory input just making the impact hole!!

Further extension of these thoughts is that the animal CNS effect does exists and a larger cross sectional area bullet works better to a point. We must also obviously add penetration to vital structures to kill effectively and efficiently. Momentum matters critically and signifigantly here. All the animal percieves is the impact and the defecit from the lethal damage to vital structures. A similar analogy can be made with enraged attacking individuals shot by firearms. They must first recognize they are shot to possibly stop their attack.If not vital structures must fail for success.

If we have enough velocity and penetration a flat nosed solid theoretically should work better than a round nosed bullet at transmitting proportional disruptive energy around the tissues of the bullet path thru the animal.Theoretically, I would prefer blunt nosed solids if penetration is ok. Lacking adequate penetration round nosed solid would be preferable.

All this is just theory and to some-just BS. Of course if you put the bullet in exactly the right place all this is irrevalent and we should all be hunting with 6.5mm's etc.

Big bullets in the right place seem to work every time!!!

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500Nitro
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #51968 - 10/03/06 08:02 AM


You are spot on.

Interestingly, everyone comments that anything over .5 of an inch
(505 Gibbs, 500 Nitro, 500 Jeff) does have alot more effect than
470 et all.

By the way, I genrally prefer Heavy Round Nose bullets over Spire Point
bullets when hunting - from my experience I think they "hit" harder
but in some cases they don't penetrate as far because of the fact they open
up faster. Having done heaps of tests on game when testing bullets
this is just something I noticed.

500 Nitro

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hoppdoc
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #51972 - 10/03/06 09:12 AM

Interesting that the mechanics of the soft nose bullets are really an attempt to get a 5 course meal out of a whopper and fries.

A portion of soft nose penetration is sacrificed for tissue trauma.With enough velocity to expand the frontal area the impact becomes the equivilent of a larger bullet for the "shock" part of the hit. Next comes the "kill" part with penetration and disruption of vital structures.If the energy dump with enough velocity is adequate-- the deformed expanded bullet gives a penetration path that is shorter but wider. It will not be as long a path as a solid but hopefully be adequate.

This soft nose effect works fine with tissues other than bone and can give spectacular "shock" results/hits.Forensic theory suggests for charging animals and shooting thru cranial bone that penetration paths by solids is more reproducible with more uniform bullet paths and depths of penetration than irregularly contoured mushroomed softnose bullets. A flathead solid bullet configuration may be the best attempt at obtaining more initial "shock" with adequate solid penetration as well.

Load my 470 with solids please!!

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500Nitro
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #51975 - 10/03/06 09:45 AM


Even when I am testing bullets, depending on the situation
and the animals I am after, I load 2 softs in a DR and
when I reload I load either 1 or 2 solids "just in case".

With a Bolt action I always have a solid or 2 at the bottom of the mag.

A Buffalo jaw will stop a 500 Nitro soft bullet from exiting from 10 ft.

500 Nitro

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hoppdoc
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #51981 - 10/03/06 10:44 AM

Is there a place for soft nose bullets with big bores?

Absolutely!!

Intuition suggests that a quality soft hitting an unadrenalized buff may give signifigant "shock" effect and allow a finishing shot.
If a rib were hit the rib fragments would secondarily lacerate lung/heart, causing massive hemmorhage. But if the shoulder is hit instead-not so good.If the buff is po'd and moving fast there is no "shock value" obtained and the value of the soft nose hit is dramatically lessened.A human brain can function with no circulation for 15 seconds,and minimal perfusion for 4 minutes.A PCP addict can be without vital signs and inflict mortal injuries on others. I assume a buff can be dead on his feet and still kill you dead as dirt.

Theoretically "Soft" skinned animals and light boned animals need softnoses to dump the energy in the animal and not the hillside behind him.I don't know how lion skulls hold up to softs but I suspect softs are ok.

Enough of armchair theory and extension of human forensic experience-what results have members of this forum seen in the field?

500 Nitro-soft noses for first shots on buff? The buff jaw experience you relate is unnerving.

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (10/03/06 10:47 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #51983 - 10/03/06 10:55 AM


Re Buff jaw, an experienced person told me this so I tried it
on a dead buff from 10 feet.

I got side on and hit the bend in the jaw. It went through this and
stopped in the bend of the following jaw. I think Buff jaws are like
Elephant bones - effing hard !!!

I disagree with you re Ribs - I haven't seen the ribs splinter and send
bits everywhere.

I will agree with you about quiet versus agitated Buffalo which have
heaps of adrenalin in them - much harder to put down.

Re "allow a finishing shot. - No, I just learnt to shoot very fast
- practice makes perfect.

A buff shot in the brain collapses - I always use this as a finihsig shot
so have shot quiet a few here - however I will say if you miss the brain
they are still alive and kicking.

500 Nitro

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #51994 - 10/03/06 12:52 PM

We're getting away from Hatari's original question here, but what the heck.

I have shot a couple or three buffalo on the point of the shoulder with soft-nose bullets from .400 to .577, and never had one fail to get through into the vitals. Typically, they will pull-up in the off-shoulder after smashing it if directly side-on, or pull-up under the hide or at least at the rib-cage if it misses the 2nd shoulder. The qualifier here is that I always use Woodleighs on buffalo, and velocities are 2000 to 2300 fps.

I would never consider a solid for the first shot at a buffalo bull. Bonded-core softs at modest velocity will deliver all the penetration you could ever need. Which brings us back to the Weatherby angle. Driving any bullet too fast, solid or soft, will potentially jeopardize penetration. How fast is too fast? Depends on bullet design and construction of course, but Weatherby velocities are generally too fast for normal 'premium' hunting bullets IMHO. They demand specialist bullets designed for high velocity, which is where homogenous construction with nose cavities or large meplats come into their own.

Just my thoughts, gentlemen....

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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hoppdoc
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #51999 - 10/03/06 01:31 PM

Further questions, please--

Apparently a broadside shot with a softnose Woodleigh on a buff is perfectly adequate. If it hits the onside shoulder can it still penetrate to the heart lung region? Any such xperiences?

Is a solid contraindicated on a broadside shot due to penetration? Will it go clean thru the buff?

If so then I assume general recommendations for the Double would be to load with a soft for the 1st shot, then a solid for the fleeing backside or charging horns. Is this correct?

Thanks for the input!

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500Nitro
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #52020 - 10/03/06 02:27 PM


hoppdoc


Re "Apparently a broadside shot with a softnose Woodleigh on a buff is perfectly adequate. If it hits the onside
shoulder can it still penetrate to the heart lung region?

Any such xperiences? Heaps / Hundreds. They definately will get through to the Vitals, no worries what so ever.


Solid - Will it go clean thru the buff? YES

If so then I assume general recommendations for the Double would be to load with a soft for the 1st shot, then
a solid for the fleeing backside or charging horns. Is this correct?

So so - each to their own. As I said before, I load 2 softs and then reload with what is needed, SN, SN or SN, Solid.

It also depends on whether I am hunting one animal like a Big Bull which is when I would definately
reload with a Solid OR wading into a herd of Buff with rapid fire where in most of my experiences
all they want to do is piss off out of there, especially after the 6th shot when a few of their mates are
dying around them.


500 Nitro

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: Hatari]
      #52093 - 11/03/06 04:17 AM

A 505 Gibbs will knock the snot out of buffalo better than a 460 Weatherby magnum, at least that is what I have seen first hand.

Regarding the rest of the discussion. I use Woodleigh soft nose bullets in my 50's and have never had an issue. I drive them at better than 2350 fps and they have always passed through buffalo chests to date. The trauma imparted to the best is impressive, and they tend to die very quickly. I will continue to use the Woodleigh, but am currently trying out the PPSP. To me the SN is perfect for the broadside shot, as it destroys a large volume of tissue and brings them down quickly. However, the SN is being seriously taxed with "charge" stoppers i.e. the head-on head shots, which tend to mangle the bullet and reduce it's weight by at least 50% (in my experience). So I have opted to try out the PPSP, which does hold up better against heavy bone. Later this year we shall see how well it does at tearing up chest cavities, methinks. I am hoping it does well, and then I will be changing over to the PPSP as my first choice.

For me solids are good for only two things, which is what they were originally intended for, penetrating ele skulls and hides at are over an inch thick. Buffalo ain't got either. The solid does a miniscule amount of damage compared to a good soft point in my experience. This lack of damage, in my experience, had lead to excessive shots needed to bring an animal down and long tracking sessions. The last one being three hours long with a lung shot buffalo. Only one hit was achieved before the beasty got to cover and escaped any further follow-ups until we caught up with it again.

Scott

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500Nitro
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: ScottS]
      #52103 - 11/03/06 06:44 AM


ScottS

I was talking about Water Buffalo but hey are / can be tough.
FYI, Our Buffalo here can easily have hide / fat / grizzle 1 - 2" thick.

Re your comment
"However, the SN is being seriously taxed with "charge" stoppers i.e.
the head-on head shots, which tend to mangle the bullet and reduce it's weight by at
least 50% (in my experience)."

SN were never meant as Charge stoppers however I have used them on brain shots
without a problem (final shot so it is the same as if the animal was moving
but I would use the Solid if I had a choice as that is what it was made for.

I agree with you re solids and in general the whole paragraph.

The PPSP bullets work really well - because of the lower amount of lead
showing they don't open up as fast as SN (everything else being equal)
but they create the same horrendous wounds as they have the same open
formation with lots of petals / sharp edges - this is one are I think a lot of
people over look.

500 Nitro

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hoppdoc
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #52111 - 11/03/06 11:01 AM

Dumb question--

What type of bullet is PPSP?

One bullet I have been impressed with is the Barnes
triple X 100% copper bullet in a 416 bolt.It works great on bears and penetrates deeply yet mushrooms well. I have used the X bullet for years on elk. They are very hardy and must be hit properly hitting both lungs to prevent long tracking. Tough but not tough like a buff of course. The X bullet is great and smashes through their shoulder bones to their vitals well.

I just wish Barnes made a X bullet in a 470 or 500. Barnes advertizes them to open as low as 1600 fps.
I think that could be the best of both worlds with good shocking ability/tissue disruption yet deep penetration.

Ultimately it is the properly placed bullet that always does the work of getting the game down. A better mousetrap is always welcome!


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500Nitro
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #52114 - 11/03/06 11:39 AM


hoppdoc

Re your Dumb question, of which their aren't any
a PPSP is a Protected Point Soft Point, which should
really be PPSN, Protected Point Soft Nose.

Geoff McDonald from Woodleigh Bullets makes them.

see www.woodleighbullets.com.au

It is a soft nose bullet where more of the Soft Nose is
encased in the jacket to protect the lead from magazine
damage under recoil. They also open up slightly slower
than original SN bullets as lead lead is showing.

I wouldn't use Barnes in a double.

500 Nitro

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grandveneur
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: Hatari]
      #348354 - 23/12/20 08:35 AM

Quote:

Is There a difference between the .505 Gibbs and the .460 Weatrherby on dangerous game ?
I know the ballistics on paper !




The classic cartridge 505 gibbs with its original 525gr bullet and the original charge is clearly inferior to the cartridge 460 WBY-Magnum. There are also two different calibers with their advantages and disadvantages.

The two are therefore theoretically not comparable. In practice , however , both will work well on Big game.

The cartridge 460 WBY-Magnum is a more modern concept , but both are large cartridges that also require heavy rifles , so in the end it will all be a question of aficionados.

In all cases , however , when it comes to a class 50 cartridge , I would prefer the cartridge 500 Jeffery.

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Baz
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: grandveneur]
      #357128 - 29/09/21 09:14 PM

Hi, I have used a 500 nitro express on Cape Buffalo, also Australian Buff, plus I have used a 460 Weatherby on massive Scrub Bulls, and a 505 Gibbs on Australian Buff.
Nothing with full loads and a soft point hits as hard as a 460 Weatherby, very closely followed by a 505 Gibbs. The 500 Nitro was my least favourite.
So through doing a lot of real hunting with my 460 (approximately 250 rounds) over 30 years. the big Weatherby wins Hands Down.
An interesting comparison, I shot a Massive Scrub Bull with my 500, and it took 5 very well placed shots, to put him down, the last one at 20 yds as he was about to charge, with the 460 same size animals(6 big bulls) shoulder shot, and dropped instantly, my Gibbs very similar, just not as devastating.

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chuck375
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: Baz]
      #366872 - 19/06/22 08:47 AM

IMO the 505 Gibbs will hit harder (diameter of the bullet) and be less likely to detach your retina.

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: chuck375]
      #366881 - 19/06/22 04:13 PM

I don't own either. Have shot the .460 Wtf Magnum, the .500 Jeffery and the .505 Gibbs.

If you want the cheapest, you'll find a .460 Weatherby Magnum easily in comparison to the other two. Lots of people buy them, very soon after resell them. Because all that un-necessary velocity causes a lot of sharp painfull recoil. Why bother with all that velocity? Are you sniping with your .460 at 400 metres?

Big game is killed by wound channel and penetration. Bullet construction. Bullet weight, section density for penetration. And calibre size for wound channel.

But something in the brain, or spinal cord and it will collapse. Hit it anywhere else and the above is more relevant.

My vote always goes to a wider calibre with more bullet weight. A 570 gr .500 calibre at a slower speed is far better than a faster .460 500 gr. Again why the velocity?

A .577 or .600, even better!

I couldn't be bothered with a .460. GrandVenuer likes his and has actually used it and kept his.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: NitroX]
      #366882 - 19/06/22 04:17 PM

An old thread from 2006. A variety of comments. Marrakai as usual is level headed.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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chuck375
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: chuck375]
      #375947 - 09/04/23 09:11 AM

Great information. However I will stick with my 500 Jeffery shooting 570g TSX bullets at 2300 fps. I think they will be adequate for the job.

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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grandveneur
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: chuck375]
      #379879 - 06/10/23 05:52 PM

As I have already written, these cartridges are not comparable.

It also has nothing to do with the type of bullet, both can be used for hunting big game with comparable bullets. Both are primarily cartridges for hunting very heavy game species, especially elephants. However, the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum is more versatile than a cartridge caliber 510 or in our case caliber 505. The supply of bullets caliber .458 is much greater, which allows to get loads for hunting very different game, which is more practical if you are hunting in Africa with only one weapon. Due to the good external ballistics of the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum shooting at longer ranges is also possible. With a cartridge caliber 505 Gibbs you are for this one somewhat limited.

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DarylS
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Re: 505 gibbs vs 460 weatherby ? [Re: NitroX]
      #379880 - 07/10/23 03:47 AM

Quote:



(b)My vote always goes to a wider calibre with more bullet weight. A 570 gr .500 calibre at a slower speed is far better than a faster .460 500 gr. Again why the velocity?(/b)

A .577 or .600, even better!

I couldn't be bothered with a .460. GrandVenuer likes his and has actually used it and kept his.



Weatherby has always been about velocity above all other factory ctgs.

Some of the newer smaller rounds have bested WTBY's older ctgs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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