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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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Ripp
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Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time...
      #347101 - 25/11/20 01:26 AM

https://www.americanrifleman.org/article...m_campaign=1120

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DarylS
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: Ripp]
      #347107 - 25/11/20 03:06 AM

Interesting, but would have been better if in chronological order.
They missed a few, I thought. The 1873 and 1884 Springfield, model 1871/84 Mausers, 8mm Lebel, 1903 Springfield, 1917 and P14's.

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Ripp
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: DarylS]
      #347117 - 25/11/20 06:09 AM

Quote:

Interesting, but would have been better if in chronological order.
They missed a few, I thought. The 1873 and 1884 Springfield, model 1871/84 Mausers, 8mm Lebel, 1903 Springfield, 1917 and P14's.

C

Come on Daryl, then the heading would have to read "TOP 18 INFANTRY RIFLES"..

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: Ripp]
      #347120 - 25/11/20 07:59 AM

For one of the few times I think the magazine article is good.

Not sure about all the ancient pre bolt action stuff. The oldest bolts do make sense. As they were a huge improvement on the single shot muzzle loaders.

The Henry lever action I have in the past referred to as the "assault rifle" of the time. Short ranged cartridges, but a nice wide lead calibre, but huge magazine, and quick firing. Exactly what would be needed for the Zulus attacking the laager.

Two surprising omissions while on that topic. The Martini-Henry and the US Springfield "trapdoor" I think it is called. Both vast improvements on the muzzle loaders.

Of course the Mauser 98 is included, revolutionary and still the best hunting bolt action that is.

BUT I think as a battle rifle the SMLE was better. With a larger magazine and IMO faster reloading. Not as good or accurate as a M98 but a better battle rifle.

The STG 44, set the scene for the later AK-47 of course, which also inspired the M16.

There is no doubt IMO the Garand was force factor in infantry firepower in WW2 and deserves the No.1 spot for WW2 rifles.

I have been looking for a pump action rifle, and there is no doubt WHY they ban semi autos where they can from civilian use. Because in mil terms and defence terms they make a big difference. Can't have a well armed populace in a Brave New World Order World.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: NitroX]
      #347121 - 25/11/20 07:59 AM

What is the next mil rifle concept?

Not the bull pup which to me is a silly design.

I see nothing much has eventuated from the caseless ammo concept. If it was successfully done in practical terms, would be a huge change.

No need for an ejection port. Less debris and dirt, moisture etc entering the action.

If the cartridge was shorter the cyclic rate could be faster.

I have played around in my mind with the idea of future sci fi firearms, where the caseless ammo is bullet only, and no solid propellant but instead a small squirt of propellent gas or liquid fuel. The bolt would be very short, only needing to chamber a projectile. The cyclic rate could be a multiple of the current numbers.

PS Ripp thanks for posting the link.

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Rule303
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: Ripp]
      #347129 - 25/11/20 09:52 AM

Thanks for posting Ripp.

Have to say I totally disagree with their pecking order.

I would rate the the FAL above the M16. It wasn't till well after Vietnam that the M16 became reliable and this was mainly due to better, less dirty propellants. Yes it could be reliable but was maintenance heavy for this to be the case. The SMLE M98, AK47, FN FAL and M16 to me would be the top 5 probably in the AK47, SMLE, M98, FN FAL, M16 order. The Garand would not make it into the top 5 in my book, it most certainly does not belong in No1 position. Innovative and basically a good design yes.

Mind you my criteria is based on reliability, effectiveness in the field, longevity and to some extent the cartridge it used. If I was to have the unfortunate need to go to war I would rather carry and use an AK47 then SLR (FAL) than an M16 or Garand or M14 by a country mile. M14 if I could not get one of my first 2 choices. Why, I have confidence in them and to some extent their cartridge against intended targets. I simply do not with the M16 and its derivatives or any other battle rifle using the 5.56. Yeah I know it works but only sort of. It still takes 2 to 3 rounds of 5.56 to do what one 7.62x51 does and the 7.62x39 still puts a bigger hole in the enemy.

If you base the selection on innovation then yes it would be a different pecking order but the subject heading is "The top 10 Infantry Rifles of All Time". So what ones worked, worked well, and had the trust, confidence of the user, and were proven on the battlefield.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: Rule303]
      #347131 - 25/11/20 10:27 AM

Quote:

Thanks for posting Ripp.

Have to say I totally disagree with their pecking order.

I would rate the the FAL above the M16. It wasn't till well after Vietnam that the M16 became reliable and this was mainly due to better, less dirty propellants. Yes it could be reliable but was maintenance heavy for this to be the case. The SMLE M98, AK47, FN FAL and M16 to me would be the top 5 probably in the AK47, SMLE, M98, FN FAL, M16 order. The Garand would not make it into the top 5 in my book, it most certainly does not belong in No1 position. Innovative and basically a good design yes.

Mind you my criteria is based on reliability, effectiveness in the field, longevity and to some extent the cartridge it used. If I was to have the unfortunate need to go to war I would rather carry and use an AK47 then SLR (FAL) than an M16 or Garand or M14 by a country mile. M14 if I could not get one of my first 2 choices. Why, I have confidence in them and to some extent their cartridge against intended targets. I simply do not with the M16 and its derivatives or any other battle rifle using the 5.56. Yeah I know it works but only sort of. It still takes 2 to 3 rounds of 5.56 to do what one 7.62x51 does and the 7.62x39 still puts a bigger hole in the enemy.

If you base the selection on innovation then yes it would be a different pecking order but the subject heading is "The top 10 Infantry Rifles of All Time". So what ones worked, worked well, and had the trust, confidence of the user, and were proven on the battlefield.



You are in my opinion confusing that they are all in the same era.

An AK-47 did not exist in WW2.

A couple of centuries almost included in that line up. Lots of changes over that time.

If we had 10 infantry armed with Garands, and ten with M98s and ten with SMLE's which would be the most effective infantry fighting force. All other things being equal.

IMO and in fact without doubt the infantry with the Garand.

If ten were armed with the STG44, that might be different, if at usual combat ranges and not longer ranges.

Eight rounds, semi auto, considerable suppressing fire effectiveness. And a semi auto rifle which was also relatively reliable.

Agree with the M16 comments. For the guys that use a FAL, or an SLR, far preferred it to the M16. The FAL did have the advantage of auto fire, compared to the SLR as well, for those that could shoot it full auto.

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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: NitroX]
      #347132 - 25/11/20 10:34 AM

An interesting scenario could be considered. To consider the use of different era battle rifles against each other.

How would good hardy good shot soldiers or warriors familiar with bolt action rifles fare against modern semi auto or full auto rifles?

Not a scenario needing imagining. As it happened.

In the early days of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan reporters detailed how the prized weapon of the Mujahedeen fighters was the .303 SMLE. It could be used to snipe the Russian invaders from the hill tops and sides. The Russians of course armed mainly with 7.62x39 Ak-47s.

Now track forward a few years, and all the Mujahedeen were armed with Ak-47s as well. Captured from the enemy. The odd old SMLE might still be in rare use.

So the romance of the SMLE "sniper" rifle did not last long compared to the modern full auto assault rifle.

NOTE: this assumes ammo supplies of .303 ammo was not also part of the equation.

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DarylS
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: NitroX]
      #347133 - 25/11/20 10:55 AM

.303's as sniper rifles did not fair well, I expect, against .338 Lapua and .5 Macmillan or .5 Barrett.
Bunch of even better SA's now in .5.

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Rule303
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: NitroX]
      #347145 - 25/11/20 06:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks for posting Ripp.

Have to say I totally disagree with their pecking order.

I would rate the the FAL above the M16. It wasn't till well after Vietnam that the M16 became reliable and this was mainly due to better, less dirty propellants. Yes it could be reliable but was maintenance heavy for this to be the case. The SMLE M98, AK47, FN FAL and M16 to me would be the top 5 probably in the AK47, SMLE, M98, FN FAL, M16 order. The Garand would not make it into the top 5 in my book, it most certainly does not belong in No1 position. Innovative and basically a good design yes.

Mind you my criteria is based on reliability, effectiveness in the field, longevity and to some extent the cartridge it used. If I was to have the unfortunate need to go to war I would rather carry and use an AK47 then SLR (FAL) than an M16 or Garand or M14 by a country mile. M14 if I could not get one of my first 2 choices. Why, I have confidence in them and to some extent their cartridge against intended targets. I simply do not with the M16 and its derivatives or any other battle rifle using the 5.56. Yeah I know it works but only sort of. It still takes 2 to 3 rounds of 5.56 to do what one 7.62x51 does and the 7.62x39 still puts a bigger hole in the enemy.

If you base the selection on innovation then yes it would be a different pecking order but the subject heading is "The top 10 Infantry Rifles of All Time". So what ones worked, worked well, and had the trust, confidence of the user, and were proven on the battlefield.



You are in my opinion confusing that they are all in the same era.

An AK-47 did not exist in WW2.

A couple of centuries almost included in that line up. Lots of changes over that time.

If we had 10 infantry armed with Garands, and ten with M98s and ten with SMLE's which would be the most effective infantry fighting force. All other things being equal.

IMO and in fact without doubt the infantry with the Garand.

If ten were armed with the STG44, that might be different, if at usual combat ranges and not longer ranges.

Eight rounds, semi auto, considerable suppressing fire effectiveness. And a semi auto rifle which was also relatively reliable.

Agree with the M16 comments. For the guys that use a FAL, or an SLR, far preferred it to the M16. The FAL did have the advantage of auto fire, compared to the SLR as well, for those that could shoot it full auto.



Not at all. I well know the AK was not in WW2 and do not think I gave the impression it was. How the would the same number of soldiers armed with STG44 against the Garand go. The facts are still there that the SMLE and M98 saw far more combat in duration, campaigns and conditions. The Garand lasted how long before it was replaced??? Yes it was a good design for a limited time. Yes I would rather have the Garand in a fire fight than a bolt, until it failed to fire for what ever reason-other than empty. I would have preferred to lug a Bren gun than a Garand even if locked on semi auto. 30 rounds and a mag change was damn near as quick as inserting a clip. I have used a Bren so know a bit of what I speak.

The other thing missing is the general mindset of the infantry. With a semi auto it took a lot of training to stop the spray and pray method- same when fully auto was available.

What I am saying is show me the Garands battle history and then the K98's and SMLE's. The latter 2's rate in history as greater battle rifles than the Garand. Remember the title of the article "The top 10 Infantry Rifles of All Time". Not to be confused with best design of all time or best what might have been. If we are to make the claim of the Garand then we must include the Galil probably better than the FAL.

Edited by Rule303 (25/11/20 06:54 PM)

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Rule303
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: NitroX]
      #347146 - 25/11/20 06:45 PM

On the subject of the SMLE sniping in Afghanistan. From what I have read more than the odd US and UK soldier returning to the place took an M14 or SLR so they could reach out to the distance those sniping at them were.

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LRF
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: Rule303]
      #347148 - 25/11/20 08:23 PM

Any order when viewed from different mindsets of the viewer, the order then can become subjective. Overall they did a plausible job. One could say they should have included this rifle or that one doesn't make sense and the list could have the the top 18 as suggested above. I like the list. Good job.
Having carried a M16 during my 2 years in Vietnam, 50 years ago, it holds a soft spot in my heart for those rattle trap rifles. Any rifle you have in your hands is the best "battle rifle", if it's the one you have and somebody is shooting at you.

Edited by LRF (25/11/20 08:24 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: LRF]
      #347157 - 26/11/20 02:35 AM

LRF and Ruke303, good to hear some differing opinions and experiences.

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DarylS
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: NitroX]
      #347167 - 26/11/20 05:11 AM

BTW - I didn't even look at the title of the article, just the title of this thread, starting with, "Some".

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Ripp
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: LRF]
      #347176 - 26/11/20 07:10 AM

Quote:

Any order when viewed from different mindsets of the viewer, the order then can become subjective. Overall they did a plausible job. One could say they should have included this rifle or that one doesn't make sense and the list could have the the top 18 as suggested above. I like the list. Good job.
Having carried a M16 during my 2 years in Vietnam, 50 years ago, it holds a soft spot in my heart for those rattle trap rifles. Any rifle you have in your hands is the best "battle rifle", if it's the one you have and somebody is shooting at you.



LRF
THANK YOU for your service. I have several uncles that headed that way...lots of stories..

Agree with your sentiments on the article as well...

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Rule303
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: LRF]
      #347198 - 26/11/20 09:07 PM

Quote:

Any order when viewed from different mindsets of the viewer, the order then can become subjective. Overall they did a plausible job. One could say they should have included this rifle or that one doesn't make sense and the list could have the the top 18 as suggested above. I like the list. Good job.
Having carried a M16 during my 2 years in Vietnam, 50 years ago, it holds a soft spot in my heart for those rattle trap rifles. Any rifle you have in your hands is the best "battle rifle", if it's the one you have and somebody is shooting at you.



Very well said indeed.

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LRF
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: Rule303]
      #347218 - 27/11/20 06:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Any order when viewed from different mindsets of the viewer, the order then can become subjective. Overall they did a plausible job. One could say they should have included this rifle or that one doesn't make sense and the list could have the the top 18 as suggested above. I like the list. Good job.
Having carried a M16 during my 2 years in Vietnam, 50 years ago, it holds a soft spot in my heart for those rattle trap rifles. Any rifle you have in your hands is the best "battle rifle", if it's the one you have and somebody is shooting at you.



Very well said indeed.



Thanks, this rule is also quite fitting if your going to complain about the rifle you have that is almost proverbial, "At no time during a fire fight exists the opportunity to "Call Time!"".

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Ripp
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: LRF]
      #347240 - 28/11/20 12:48 AM

Change the dynamics a bit..

9-of-the-best-military-rifles-around-the-world..

https://interestingengineering.com/9-of-the-best-military-rifles-around-the-world

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: Ripp]
      #347261 - 28/11/20 11:49 AM

Quote:

Otherwise known as the AR-15



?

And first time I have seen the SA80 on a best of list of any sort.

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Rule303
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: NitroX]
      #347271 - 28/11/20 05:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Otherwise known as the AR-15



?

And first time I have seen the SA80 on a best of list of any sort.



Ditto.

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vykkagur
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: NitroX]
      #347275 - 29/11/20 02:57 AM

Quote:

I have been looking for a pump action rifle....




Have I got a rifle for you! Just add a butt plate and you're off to the range. Last I heard, the owner was willing to sell, too.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=65912

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DarylS
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: vykkagur]
      #347277 - 29/11/20 03:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have been looking for a pump action rifle....




Have I got a rifle for you! Just add a butt plate and you're off to the range. Last I heard, the owner was willing to sell, too.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=65912



That's pretty wild.

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Daryl


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vykkagur
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: DarylS]
      #347278 - 29/11/20 04:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have been looking for a pump action rifle....




Have I got a rifle for you! Just add a butt plate and you're off to the range. Last I heard, the owner was willing to sell, too.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=65912



That's pretty wild.




And with a Sako barrel, too. If the politics weren't what they are right now, I'd have bought it.

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DarylS
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: vykkagur]
      #347286 - 29/11/20 12:24 PM

& chambered 9.3x57 - NICE calibre!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Some of the Top Infantry Rifles of all time... [Re: vykkagur]
      #347289 - 29/11/20 04:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have been looking for a pump action rifle....




Have I got a rifle for you! Just add a butt plate and you're off to the range. Last I heard, the owner was willing to sell, too.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=65912



That one is worth a thread of its own.

However I don't have a canoe so don't need a paddle.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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