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grandveneur
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346815 - 13/11/20 08:33 PM



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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346820 - 13/11/20 10:07 PM

Quote:









Those are some very interesting custom 'muzzle brake' ports:

The receiver in your image is clearly marked as a 'Model GK' Mannlicher Schoenauer.

The GK, or gerader kolben actually designated a style of stock rather than any other difference from MC or MCA models of the same period.

Mannlicher Schoenauer commercial sporting rifles and carbines through 'Model 1952' all had the same stock profile (unless custom ordered) from the receiver rearward, though available in half stocked rifle or full stocked carbine (stutzen) form. Prior to WW2 they were also available as a handy 'Take Down Model:


'Prewar' MS stock dimensions


Take Down Model from 1939 Stoeger
Note custom options listed below image



Above is the standard stock, which would be replaced about 1956 with the raised cheekpiece shown below:



Not everyone liked the new high combed stock, so a 'toned down' version was also offered.
Steyr referred to the high comb as 'Monte Carlo' or Model MC as stamped on their receivers, and the medium rise comb as 'Monte Carlo Amerikanisch', or 'Monte Carlo All-Purpose' which were stamped Model MCA.


MC from 1962 Stoeger


MCA from '62 Stoeger

For those who preferred the old style stock, there was Model GK such as the receiver you've shown.


Model GK - Gerader Kolben

There was also a Model NO, which appears to indicate non - standard or custom orders.
Here is a previous thread regarding these models: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=325014&Main=324972

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grandveneur
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #346821 - 13/11/20 10:21 PM

GK means "Gekrümmter Kammerstängel" , curved bolt grip , has nothing to do with the stock of the rifle , unlike MC or MCA where it is about the stock shape.

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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346822 - 13/11/20 10:32 PM

A thread (from another 'site) regarding Patagon's MS in 9.3X64 and the cartridge itself: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/mannlicher-schoenauer-in-9-3x64.45303/

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346823 - 13/11/20 10:37 PM

Quote:

GK means "Gekrümmter Kammerstängel" , curved bolt grip , has nothing to do with the stock of the rifle , unlike MC or MCA where it is about the stock shape.




Kuduae indicates otherwise.

I'm open to evidence for either case.

From Kuduae, February 2019:

The model GK was merely a stock and finish shape of the post-1952 Mannlicher – Schoenauer, made to European tastes. GKs share all the metal work with the "American" models MC and MCA, though the bolts are blued on GKs, polished bright on the others. Late versions of all three "models" have wimpy, sheet metal tang safeties instead of the earlier side safeties. IMHO "GK" stnds for Gerader Kolben = straight buttstock. This stock shape is the distinguishing feature of the GK. Model GK rifles in 7x64 are now the most often encountered Mannlicher – Schoenauers here in Germany. The GK designation is so common here that Germans often call any old split bridge, true Mannlicher-Schoenauer a "GK" to distinguish it from earlier and later Steyr products. The MC and MCA stock variations were not even offered in Germany.
The model NO is quite confusing. Apparently Steyr called all sorts of special order, not catalogued versions NO. So NOs come in many different configurations, some with straight bolt handles when bent ones were standard, some with bent ones.


So, let's have it, guys.
Does GK indicate stock shape, bolt shape, or something else altogether?

Does anyone else have input regarding 'Model NO'?

From (U.S.) Stoeger catalog, 1960:


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grandveneur
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #346824 - 13/11/20 10:48 PM

Never heard that GK means straight Buttstock.

All classic MS models have straight buttstocks , including my old MS Stutzen M1905.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346825 - 13/11/20 10:55 PM

Quote:

Never heard that GK means straight Buttstock.

All classic MS models have straight buttstocks , including my old MS Stutzen M1905.




If by 'classic', you mean prior to Model 1956, you're quite correct.

As I posted prior: Mannlicher Schoenauer commercial sporting rifles and carbines through 'Model 1952' all had the same stock profile (unless custom ordered) from the receiver rearward, though available in half stocked rifle or full stocked carbine (stutzen) form. Prior to WW2 they were also available as a handy 'Take Down Model.


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grandveneur
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #346827 - 13/11/20 11:56 PM



" Does anyone else have input regarding 'Model NO'? "




As far as I know, parallel to the 1952 / GK model that was intended for export, a NO model was produced until 1964 for the European market, but with a straight bolt grip and for european standard calibers. However, there were always deviations according to the models , for example regarding the safety device , on the side or on the back of the pistol grip of the stock.

You can imagine what for hybrids were made until to the Model 1972 , including a few rifles caliber 9,3x64.


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lancaster
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346854 - 14/11/20 04:41 PM

in this time steyr had, unlike today, a friendly ear for customer wishes

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Louis
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: lancaster]
      #346861 - 15/11/20 04:47 AM

Grand Veneur, I have no input or answer to your questions but I wanted to congratulate you finding and owning such a rare rifle in a much valuable calibre.
Louis

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Rule303
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346866 - 15/11/20 12:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Grandveneur, you certainly have a rare bird there!
I bet you can't wait to get it into the field & try her out.
Will you be handloading or just using factory ammunition?

Dotchicco did a great article on the 9.3x64mm, give him a bell if you decide to reload.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post340120

PatagonHunter, you have lucky mate as well indeed, many thanks for posting those photos!
Kind regards





It is an original model from Steyr, no doubt about it. It is a rarity , although in the meantime we are at least two who have one. We have also had contact with each other. The number 64 is even engraved on the magazine follower and there are no cartridge feeding problems either.

The question remains when and how many were produced.

As far as the cartridge 9,3x64 Brenneke is concerned , I have used this cartridge for almost 20 years and shot many game with it. Normally I reload my cartridges , but in this case because of the accurate shooting in my rifle from back then I only used the factory load with 19g TUG bullets from RWS. In Europe we have to use lead-free bullets more and more often , so that I have nowadays to use or load something in this direction for my MS rifle caliber 9,3x64. In Africa for plain game I will not have this problem.




Sir, does your MS in 9.3X64 have a ported barrel as in the photo's or was that an addition done by a previous owner?


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grandveneur
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: Rule303]
      #346873 - 15/11/20 08:17 PM

My rifle has no a ported barrel or other device. I've never needed anything like this against the recoil of a rifle , and besides , it defaces a rifle.

The picture belongs to the Rifle that was the reason for this topic MS rifle caliber 9,3x64 in 2017. The picture can be seen at the beginning of the topic. I bought the current rifle two weeks ago.

We are talking about two MS rifles caliber 9,3x64. One was on sale in 2017 , the second one this year , and I bought this one and not the first with the port.

Edited by grandveneur (15/11/20 08:30 PM)


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kuduae
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346877 - 15/11/20 11:27 PM

Quote:

GK means "Gekrümmter Kammerstängel" , curved bolt grip , has nothing to do with the stock of the rifle , unlike MC or MCA where it is about the stock shape.



Grandveneur,the other post-1952 models MC and MCA were named for their buttstock shape, Monte-Carlo and Monte Carlo Amerikanisch, both have swept-back bolthandles too. So a "Gebogener Kammerstaengel" = swept back bolthandle was no distinguishing feature between the three models MC, MCA and GK. The designation "GK" is also found on 6.5x68 and 8x68 Magnum rifles with blued, straight bolthandles and straight buttstocks, as made for the European market. So I rather believe "GK" stood originally for "Grader Kolben" = straight buttstock.


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grandveneur
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: kuduae]
      #346879 - 15/11/20 11:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

GK means "Gekrümmter Kammerstängel" , curved bolt grip , has nothing to do with the stock of the rifle , unlike MC or MCA where it is about the stock shape.



Grandveneur, as the other post-1952 models MC and MCA were named for their buttstock shape, Monte-Carlo and Monte Carlo Amerikanisch, both with swept-back bolthandles too, and the designation "GK" is also found on 6.5x68 and 8x68 magnum rifles with blued, straight bolthandles and straight buttstocks, as made for the European market, I rather believe "GK" stands for "Grader Kolben" = straight buttstock.




"Gerader Kolben" oder so was ähnliches für die Bezeichnung GK ?

Never heard before !

I will ask a few other connoisseurs what they think about the topic.

Edited by grandveneur (15/11/20 11:54 PM)


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346881 - 16/11/20 01:18 AM

To United States buyers of 1960 the GK designation clearly indicated a particular buttstock profile rather than a 'swept back' bolt handle.

If an American buyer of the early 1960s ordered an MC or MCA as shown in the Stoeger catalog, it came with a swept back handle.

If the same buyer preferred the stock profile of a Model 1952, they were advised to order Model GK.

A. F. Stoeger advertised as the 'sole supplier' to the U.S. of Steyr arms.


Stoeger, 1960 - "In response to popular demand we can now supply any Mannlicher Rifle or Carbine with a conventional stock as used in Europe.
There is no extra charge for this- the price that applies to desired model remains the same; merely specify "GK-Model 1952 Stock" prominently on your order. Delivery takes about 90 days."



Stoeger, 1961 - "Mechanical specifications are the same for all models (Model 1961-MCA, Model 1960-MC, and Model 1952-GK)".

None of this, of course, verifies the origin of the GK designation or what it may / may not have defined when first used. It does show an established branding by 1960 to U. S. buyers of the GK as a straight stocked rifle or carbine that is otherwise identical to Models MC and MCA.

These are, however, the same buyers who had by then come to refer to all stutzen, regardless of maker, as being 'Mannlichers' or 'Mannlicher Stocked'.



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grandveneur
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346882 - 16/11/20 01:25 AM

I received an answer.

I will spare you the comments , but GK stands for "Gekrümmter Kammerstängel" and has nothing to do with the buttstock.

The buttstocks were always straight so that there was not something new in the contrary of the curved bolt grip.

Edited by grandveneur (16/11/20 01:50 AM)


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346883 - 16/11/20 01:42 AM

Quote:

I received an answer.

I will spare you the comments , but GK stands for "Gekrümmter Kammerstängel" and has nothing to do with the buttstock.

The buttstocks were always straight so that there was not something new in the contrary of the curved bolt grip.




It would seem plausible to suppose that perhaps 'GK' did originally indicate the change, with Model 1952, to the swept back bolt handle. With the new MC stock for Model 1956 and the later MCA having been produced primarily for sales to the U.S., production continued on the prior model (GK, or Model 1952) for European buyers and, as advised in the '60 Stoeger, for U.S. buyers who preferred a "conventional style stock as used in Europe".

As the low cheekpiece stock had last been standard on the Model 1952, or GK, that was how it was to be ordered. Perhaps due to convention it would become assumed that 'GK' stood for 'Gerader Kolben' much the same as many believe that 'Jeep' came from an abbreviation of the words, 'general purpose' (it did not).

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grandveneur
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #346884 - 16/11/20 02:03 AM

Quote:

...


As the low cheekpiece stock had last been standard on the Model 1952, or GK, that was how it was to be ordered. Perhaps due to convention it would become assumed that 'GK' stood for 'Gerader Kolben' much the same as many believe that 'Jeep' came from an abbreviation of the words, 'general purpose' (it did not).




It could be like that.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346885 - 16/11/20 02:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

...


As the low cheekpiece stock had last been standard on the Model 1952, or GK, that was how it was to be ordered. Perhaps due to convention it would become assumed that 'GK' stood for 'Gerader Kolben' much the same as many believe that 'Jeep' came from an abbreviation of the words, 'general purpose' (it did not).




It could be like that.




The shoe would fit, with both 'gekrummter kammerstangel' and 'gerader kolben' being logical depending on perspective or time period referenced.

An original meaning could have been surpassed by another, as it was logical for countless GI's and others to assume that 'Jeep' came from Ford's designation of their Truck, 1/4 ton, 4X4 as 'GP' and that GP meant 'general purpose'.

In fact, the GP designation of the first contract Ford 'Jeeps' was their own code for government (G), eighty inch wheelbase (P). The standard Ford built WW2 'Jeeps' were GPW - Government, 80" wheelbase, Willys pattern.

The word, 'Jeep', predates the vehicles by decades.


Ford GP, 1941

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346907 - 17/11/20 04:45 AM


Steyr .376 'Dragoon Scout': Forgotten Weapons

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346924 - 18/11/20 06:45 AM

Quote:

In Europe we have to use lead-free bullets more and more often , so that I have nowadays to use or load something in this direction for my MS rifle caliber 9,3x64. In Africa for plain game I will not have this problem.





These are 'on sale' right now at $39.95 USD per box of 25.
: https://shop.nosler.com/nosler-bullets/solid/solid-93mm-286-grain-bullet-25ct.html



I just ordered some .375 260 grain at 24.95 a box, now those are back to $91.30 per.

I've been looking for an ideal 'unleaded' projectile for the 9.5X57 and that just may be it.

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grandveneur
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #346933 - 18/11/20 06:44 PM

About until 20 years ago I used the factory load 19g TUG from RWS in my FN Mauser rifle caliber 9,3x64 to my complete satisfaction. This load is Brenneke's original load for his rifles. The majority of the old rifles caliber 9,3x64 and the old rifles caliber 9,3x64 are in the most cases designed for that too.

Because of the lead free affair in Europe I have now to think about something extra. I will therefore first test the new lead-free factory loads 14,2 g / 220 gr TUG Nature from the company Brenneke. The size and shape of the bullet are the same as the original 19g TUG bullet.

https://www.brenneke-ammunition.de/buechsenmunition/tug-nature/


At some point I will load a few cartridges with FMJ bullets for all cases , as I often go hunting in Africa , but I will not hunt Big or DG with this rifle.

Edited by grandveneur (18/11/20 07:02 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: grandveneur]
      #346936 - 18/11/20 08:22 PM

Quote:

About until 20 years ago I used the factory load 19g TUG from RWS in my FN Mauser rifle caliber 9,3x64 to my complete satisfaction. This load is Brenneke's original load for his rifles. The majority of the old rifles caliber 9,3x64 and the old rifles caliber 9,3x64 are in the most cases designed for that too.

Because of the lead free affair in Europe I have now to think about something extra. I will therefore first test the new lead-free factory loads 14,2 g / 220 gr TUG Nature from the company Brenneke. The size and shape of the bullet are the same as the original 19g TUG bullet.

https://www.brenneke-ammunition.de/buechsenmunition/tug-nature/


At some point I will load a few cartridges with FMJ bullets for all cases , as I often go hunting in Africa , but I will not hunt Big or DG with this rifle.




Can I ask why you don't want to use a true equivalent of the 375H&H on Big or Dangerous game.


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grandveneur
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Re: Mannlicher Schönauer caliber 9,3x64 [Re: Rule303]
      #346938 - 18/11/20 09:16 PM

Quote:

...

Can I ask why you don't want to use a true equivalent of the 375H&H on Big or Dangerous game.




Especially because I have more suitable rifles for this purpose in my gun safe.

Based on my personal experience and after I have shot buffaloes with various cartridges caliber 9.3mm to .510 , often without an PH for the backup , I am of the opinion that DG should be hunted with much larger calibers than with the cartridge 9.3x64 Brenneke or the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum. The latter are good cartridges for hunting plain game in Africa and can be used to a limited extent on Big or DG if necessary , but not as a first intention.

Edited by grandveneur (18/11/20 09:24 PM)


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