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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: AK_Stick]
      #346785 - 13/11/20 03:05 AM

Quote:

The problem was they had no stock larger than 1 inch, and the 8 bore requires 1.025 (atleast mine and most of the ones I’ve seen do). They also cut my rims undersized, which allowed the cartridge to set back against the breech under recoil of the other barrel, which is what caused mine to double. Not an experience I wish to duplicate.



I could see that may happen with a non-rebounding hammer gun with the other hammer down.

The brass maker could have hammer forged their blanks to enlarge the base prior to machining. Wouldn't have been difficult.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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AK_Stick
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Reged: 28/07/19
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: Huvius]
      #346794 - 13/11/20 07:12 AM

My other hammer was still secured by the stalking safety. The primer itself flattened on the breech face.


I agree there are things that could have been done. The bras was good quality, If they have stock of appropriate size I would not be against it. But personally, I can’t find a reason not to use RCC for any future brass given my utter satisfaction with their product.

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: AK_Stick]
      #346795 - 13/11/20 08:03 AM

That’s one for the books for sure. Were they 209 type shotgun primers or standard large rifle primers?
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26486
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #346797 - 13/11/20 08:41 AM

I am finding it difficult to understand how the second barrel could discharge without having a firing pin strike.

Perhaps a very weak firing pin return spring, or no spring, allowed the pin under recoil, to slam forwards striking that primer? A loose pin?

Is this the ultimate reason (doubling) for the change to rebounding firing pins?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: DarylS]
      #346798 - 13/11/20 10:26 AM

Quote:

I am finding it difficult to understand how the second barrel could discharge without having a firing pin strike.
Perhaps a very weak firing pin return spring, or no spring, allowed the pin under recoil, to slam forwards striking that primer? A loose pin?
Is this the ultimate reason (doubling) for the change to rebounding firing pins?



My personal guess is that rebounding locks became the solution to:
1) having to 1/2 cock before opening the rifle/gun
2) eliminated the need for 1/2 cock and stalking safeties.

The answer is lost to the mists of time..
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #346802 - 13/11/20 12:23 PM

Yes, of course.
That makes sense.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: AK_Stick]
      #346803 - 13/11/20 01:02 PM

This really is a great looking rifle.


We need video!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: tinker]
      #346806 - 13/11/20 01:51 PM

Quote:

This really is a great looking rifle.
We need video!


Well thankyou.....i consider your input quite a compliment. Yes, whomever in the UK did the restoration, it is a very nice job of it.

The rifle has a couple minor issues to sort out over the Winter; nothing major.
RMC is finishing my brass and I have the ball mould from Tanner in hand.

Video? As in a scrawny 68 year old getting thumped by 10 Drams and a 970 grain ball? .......light my forest on fire?.......damn; “Thankyou Sir, may I have another!”

If, next Spring, I can find a buddy to video I will do it!
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26486
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #346807 - 13/11/20 02:30 PM

Come on up here with it and I'll do the video, Mike.
Is that a conical ball gun, or a round ball gun?
Was interested due to the 90" rate of twist. Of course
that would be akin to a 72" to 78" twist in a little 24 bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: DarylS]
      #346808 - 13/11/20 02:46 PM

Hi Daryl,
I’m guessing it’s a round ball rifle due to the ~1-90 twist and roughly 1880 date.

Come on up? I’d love to......except, has not your beloved PM Turdeaux and P.Q. oriented Politicians made 8 Bores illegal?
...anti tank or anti aircraft weapons don’t you know.....

So.......You had best come on down to the “Peoples Republic of Colorado” to do a video.
Have guest room, 3 drooling Labradors, and several different Single Malt Whisky selections.
-Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #346830 - 14/11/20 01:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

This really is a great looking rifle.
We need video!



Video? As in a scrawny 68 year old getting thumped by 10 Drams and a 970 grain ball? .......light my forest on fire?.....




Absolutely..!!!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26486
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: tinker]
      #346832 - 14/11/20 04:21 AM

LOL - you are absolutely right, Mike. As I don't have any artillery pieces (included 8 bores of course) I'd forgotten about that dip's May 1st move.
I would love to visit.
BTW - keep in mind the patched ball loads I used in brass cases in my 16 bore straight rifled gun.
They shot cleanly and accurately. IIRC, I used Neetsfoot oil for lube on the patches, with 1/8" hard card wads underneath to the powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: DarylS]
      #346839 - 14/11/20 10:53 AM


My personal guess is that rebounding locks became the solution to:
1) having to 1/2 cock before opening the rifle/gun
2) eliminated the need for 1/2 cock and stalking safeties.

The answer is lost to the mists of time..

That was always my opinion although I have a .450/400 with non-rebounding locks without a half cock

TH44

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AK_Stick
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Reged: 28/07/19
Posts: 9
Loc: Alaska
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: DarylS]
      #346864 - 15/11/20 11:14 AM

Quote:

I am finding it difficult to understand how the second barrel could discharge without having a firing pin strike.

Perhaps a very weak firing pin return spring, or no spring, allowed the pin under recoil, to slam forwards striking that primer? A loose pin?

Is this the ultimate reason (doubling) for the change to rebounding firing pins?



The gap in the rim thickness and the breech face allowed the cartridge to get a running start into the breech when I fired, and because the primers I was using had very little recess on the face of the primer, when it struck the breech face, it flattened just enough to detonate the primer.


Since then, with the RCC brass I’ve fired the 8 nearly 200 times this summer getting ready to hunt with it this fall, and that was the only double I’ve suffered.


It’s worth noting that when it doubled, I was firing a 1250 grain conical, not my 880 grain ball, so it’s possible the extra recoil of the conical had something to do with the double, and not just the RMC brass.

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1411
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: AK_Stick]
      #346865 - 15/11/20 12:21 PM

“....allowed the cartridge to get a running start into.....struck the breech face...”

Maybe I’m too thick to truly understand, but the physics involved in firing a double rifle do not lend themselves to a case slamming into the breech face and impacting a high primer.
Quite the opposite, upon recoil the cartridge on the non firing side will slide farther into the chamber to wherever headspace allows and not backwards to the breech face
(Newtons 1st Law: a body at rest...ie: the cartridge; .... and Newtons 3rd Law: equal & opposite reaction and all that.)

.....and...I presume this was a 209 type shotgun primer where the actual cup of the primer is enclosed by the battery cup part?
Unlike a standard large rifle primer it would seem very difficult for a 209 type shotgun primer to “slamfire”....

That your rifle doubled there is no doubt......very weird circumstance.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1411
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #347723 - 10/12/20 06:26 AM

Early Christmas......my 8 bore cases from Rocky Mountain Cartridges arrived today.
Hope to get a couple loaded up and test fire before our next snow storm.....

The .875 ball is from my Ballmoulds.com mould (formerly Jeff Tanner, UK).
- Mike





--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1411
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #347737 - 10/12/20 02:31 PM

Assembled 4 to test fire.
10 Drams Olde Eynsford 2F, WW 209 primer, 960 grain .875" round ball cast from 1-20
Thin card over powder wad with SPG lubed fibre spacer wad.

As an aside; the case rim measures 1.032" diameter and fits my Lewis perfectly. RMC worked from my Cerrosafe chamber cast for a custom fit to my rifle and ball diameter..

Don't have my "Buckstix star crimp tool" yet so I will load and fire only one chamber at a time.
- Mike



--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #347743 - 10/12/20 03:02 PM

I expect video!

I'll understand if there's a commercial spot for Advil following the scene.

Standing by...

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39195
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #347746 - 10/12/20 03:06 PM

Quote:



Don't have my "Buckstix star crimp tool" yet so I will load and fire only one chamber at a time.
- Mike




Probably a good idea at the beginning anyway.

I know when firing the .600 NE only one hammer at a time was cocked.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1411
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: NitroX]
      #347747 - 10/12/20 03:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:



Don't have my "Buckstix star crimp tool" yet so I will load and fire only one chamber at a time.
- Mike




Probably a good idea at the beginning anyway.

I know when firing the .600 NE only one hammer at a time was cocked.


+1

I make it a habit to not cock both hammers of a double at the same time as a matter of course.....I'm not facing dangerous game here so why chance it. Besides that.....it takes a few seconds for 10 Drams of smoke to clear enough to see the target for a followup shot.
If I have a new (to me) hammerless I will load one side and put a primed empty in the other side for the first few test shots just to give me a bit of confidence that it is not going to double on me.

Tinker-
I will have to see if I can talk my wife into video of the festivities

-Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #347753 - 10/12/20 05:32 PM

Quote:



Tinker-
I will have to see if I can talk my wife into video of the festivities




That's the spirit.
I'll get the popcorn ready.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: tinker]
      #347757 - 11/12/20 01:51 AM

10 drams won’t be too bad from a heavy rifle such as yours.
I’ve shot 240grs in my single barrel muzzle loader and it was quite tolerable. The “service load” for the 8bore muzzle loaders was, I believe, 300grs but I haven’t got there yet.

I don’t really know if breech loaders recoil more or less, generally, than equal bore/charge front stuffers.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
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Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: Huvius]
      #347769 - 11/12/20 06:23 AM

Theoretically, the breech loader should have greater recoil, all other things (weight and design) being the same.
This would be due to the small loss of pressure from the ignition device, whether flint of percussion-cap ignition.
If there is no loss at the cap, then the recoil should be virtually identical.
With a new nipple, my 14 bore does not vent from the nipple at the shot with standard load, but still does, just a bit,
with the 6 dram hunting load. This said, it is still not enough to cause the spent cap to depart the nipple.
With original rifles or smoothbores, I would expect much more loss of pressure at the "tube" than with modern nipple designs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1411
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: DarylS]
      #347775 - 11/12/20 08:42 AM

Ben; rifle is 15 lbs 8oz
10 Drams/960 grain ball, yea sure, to paraphrase the saying "tis but a maidens caress"....... a maiden the size of a big Samoan using weighted gloves
- Mike



--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 8 Bore "Clobber Pipe".... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #347792 - 11/12/20 03:13 PM

It's a Love tap.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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