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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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Ripp
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The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16
      #346713 - 11/11/20 08:24 AM

https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/guns/the-rise-of-sub-gauge-shotguns-16-20-28-gauge/

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DarylS
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: Ripp]
      #346720 - 11/11/20 11:44 AM

I have been considering getting a 20 or 28 bore O/U Turkish made gun. Seems well made and $649.00 here. However, I do have a pair of 12pump guns that work just fine and will suffice with lighter shot charges for grouse.
Then there's the 12bore/.222 O/U. Cast 48gr. GC loads in the .222 and 1oz. shot loads (or 7/8oz) both for grouse, sitting or flying.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: DarylS]
      #346729 - 11/11/20 08:19 PM

can't see 16 ga as sub gauge, not even 20 ga
or you shot 4 ga every day

sub gauge starts with 24 and goes down then

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93x64mm
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: lancaster]
      #346731 - 11/11/20 10:46 PM

And what of the humble .410?
https://ssaa.org.au/stories/shotguns-the-410-a-diminutive-dynamo.html#.WFrgL6basv0
a bit more
http://www.fourten.org.uk/light.html
Some good reading amongst these.
Yep, good enough to take quail on the fly!

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Ripp
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: lancaster]
      #346734 - 12/11/20 01:20 AM

Quote:

can't see 16 ga as sub gauge, not even 20 ga
or you shot 4 ga every day

Sub gauge starts with 24 and goes down then



I had a similar thought when reading this article.. never considered the 16 as "sub-gauge".. I used it a lot for pheasant--especially late season .. 16 gauge and #5's do well...

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DarylS
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: Ripp]
      #346744 - 12/11/20 04:56 AM

I tend to agree with lancaster - anything that shoots under an ounce with normal, top-end loads, would be sub-gauge to me.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: DarylS]
      #346760 - 12/11/20 01:01 PM

I started shooting with a .410 side by side with hammers. I think it is very tightly choked. I remember the dust explosions at fair distances and they were not wide. Still have grandpas shotgun but haven't used it for years.

Thankfully that one was well oiled in and did not suffer as much from the rust in Dad's shed safe before I rescued them back

Other than that I have only used the 12 gauge.

Perhaps have shot a 20 gauge of a friends.

There used to be a lot of good cheap 16 gauge old side by sides in the gunshops for good prices, but that has dried up I think. A lot of the people born in Continental Europe or of that descent had 16 gauges. Ammo was not easily available for it.

Must read the article!

PS NEver seen a 24 gauge, and heard of but never seen a 28 gauge.

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John aka NitroX

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3DogMike
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: NitroX]
      #346784 - 13/11/20 02:56 AM

My 2¢ worth...... Got to fill up magazine column inches somehow.

16 a “subgauge”? Not to my notion; it does what a non magnum 12 will do in a slightly slimmer profile. I love mine, and realistically it’s no different than my late 1880’s 12 Bore W&C Scott with 2 1/2” chambers.

So herein is my take: why “ban” a 12 Bore when all one needs to do is mandate “traditional” 12 Bore game loads that duplicate modern “heavy” 20 Ga loads.... ie: 1oz, 1 1/16oz, max 1 1/8oz

This apparent “subgauge” trend/rage seems to me nothing but putting on airs......faux exclusivity.....California Cool

- Mike

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DarylS
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: 3DogMike]
      #346791 - 13/11/20 04:46 AM

You have a point, Mike. The 28 bore is particularly liked by a close friend of mine. He bought one of the Turkish O/U's a few years back when they sold for $450.00. They are now $649.00 and I am thinking along that line myself.
Much superior in patterning to the .410. For me, both .410's I patterned, did better with 2 1/2" 1/2oz. shells than the 3" 11/16oz magnums.
The 2 1/2" gave much more even patterns, whereas the 3" gave a centre concentration of shot, this tiny circle of densely patterned shot with a huge wounding pattern around it with scattered shot.
One of my daughters has a .410, stored here until she acquires her federal license to possess a firearm.
I have a ventilated rib single shot folding .410 that is likely too tightly choked. I need to open that up a bit as it shots poor patchy patterns with all the different loads I've tried, 3" and 2 1/2". BTW - .410's used to be cheap - not any more.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ripp
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: DarylS]
      #346828 - 14/11/20 12:47 AM

Quote:

You have a point, Mike. The 28 bore is particularly liked by a close friend of mine. He bought one of the Turkish O/U's a few years back when they sold for $450.00. They are now $649.00 and I am thinking along that line myself.
Much superior in patterning to the .410. For me, both .410's I patterned, did better with 2 1/2" 1/2oz. shells than the 3" 11/16oz magnums.
The 2 1/2" gave much more even patterns, whereas the 3" gave a centre concentration of shot, this tiny circle of densely patterned shot with a huge wounding pattern around it with scattered shot.
One of my daughters has a .410, stored here until she acquires her federal license to possess a firearm.
I have a ventilated rib single shot folding .410 that is likely too tightly choked. I need to open that up a bit as it shots poor patchy patterns with all the different loads I've tried, 3" and 2 1/2". BTW - .410's used to be cheap - not any more.



Agree with Mike and Daryl..

Need to sell articles..have to say I do enjoy my little 28 sxs for Hungarian partridge..light, fast and fun to shoot

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ducmarc
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: Ripp]
      #346844 - 14/11/20 12:22 PM

pickup a nice skeet special 1100 remington for the wife in 28. 28s seem to have more of a smack than a shove. had an old model 51 ithaca gas gun in 20 i think it was the lightest shooting one of all. it was a little rough so i sold it . may have to find another one

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Trailboss
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: ducmarc]
      #347550 - 05/12/20 08:57 AM

Now it's just my opinion but for me the only true UPLAND shotgun gauge IS the 16. Slim, lightweight and nimble, all the required characteristic traits for success in the field. Wide enough range of payloads, sufficient shortness of shot string, and recoil punishment not a serious consideration. I've shot them all in the field and the 16 is my choice everytime. Just a few of my field 16's.

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lancaster
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: Trailboss]
      #347567 - 06/12/20 03:17 AM

before the war 16 ga was THE shotgun caliber here
I would agree that shooting one once or more shot make the difference to the small bores.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Ripp
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: lancaster]
      #347579 - 06/12/20 12:26 PM

I have been using the 16 a lot for pheasants the last ten years or so..seems perfect for that..see more and more of them around ..at least here

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93x64mm
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: Ripp]
      #347594 - 07/12/20 07:23 AM

Nice collection of 16g shoties there Trailboss - love those old doubles!
What is the pump action, never heard of a 'break-down' type before?
Also what is the bolt action type - should be good for solids with the choke removed?

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Trailboss
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #347601 - 07/12/20 11:21 AM

93, the takedown is a Ward's Western Field. Made by J. Stevens model 520. The bolt is a Mossberg model 190 D. I have one 16 from each of the two series that Mossberg made between the late 30's and the 60's. The earlier model came with three individual chokes you just threaded on. The newer model came with the Select-A-Choke that could be turned from full to cylinder choke. The bolts do well with buck shot and slugs. Here's some more of the bolts, all are from the two series 16's 20's and 410's. Only twelve is on the far left. Only 2 left to complete the two series group.

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xausa
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: Trailboss]
      #347630 - 08/12/20 07:45 AM

I have a little Merkel O/U 12 gauge which I picked up in a deal for several other guns from a pawn shop years ago when I was in the gun business and the pawn shop owner wanted to reduce his investment in guns. I was shooting skeet a lot back then, but when I took the Merkel out to the skeet field, I could not get used to its balance. I found it to be muzzle light, and I prefer my shotguns to be a little muzzle heavy, so I quit using it for a while.

At some point the mood struck me and I sent the gun off to Briley and had it fitted with a pair of 28 gauge tubes. The gun was useless to me as a skeet gun, since I was shooting International Skeet only, but all of a sudden it became my go to gun for hunting purposes. I particularly liked dove shooting with it. I got a good deal of satisfaction out of downing a high flier going directly overhead.

I still have the gun, although I haven't hunted with it in years. I have developed neuropathy in both feet and it has affected my ability to walk any distance. I probably have Agent Oriange to thank for that.

However, I'm looking forward to the day when I can take my grandson out to the skeet range and let him get started with it. I resist the idea of starting him with a .410 bore. In my opinion, the .410 simply does not throw enough shot to ensure that there are no holes in the pattern.

I grew up using my grandad's 16 gauge Browning five shot automatic, chambered for the 2.5" shells. It would function with 2 3/4" shells, but only the roll crip variety. It refused to function with the star crimped plastic shells. I killed a lot of quail and doves, and even some ducks with that old gun. It had the original Browning safety in the front of the trigger guard.

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EDELWEISS
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: xausa]
      #347636 - 08/12/20 11:32 PM

I can "see" the argument for 20ga, especially with the spike in 3" and 3 1/2: 12ga guns. A few years back I got slammed when I suggested a 20ga for a fighting gun. I was ridiculed for even suggesting such hearsay.

I do have some interest in the sub 20s; but I havent seen a bunch of offerings.

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Ripp
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #347637 - 09/12/20 12:28 AM

Quote:

I can "see" the argument for 20ga, especially with the spike in 3" and 3 1/2: 12ga guns. A few years back I got slammed when I suggested a 20ga for a fighting gun. I was ridiculed for even suggesting such hearsay.

I do have some interest in the sub 20s; but I havent seen a bunch of offerings.



One of my good friends is a retired military individual..20 gauge is what he has in his home for defense..I see no problem with that..buckshot and slugs make for a deadly combo

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lancaster
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: xausa]
      #347790 - 11/12/20 02:31 PM

Quote:



I grew up using my grandad's 16 gauge Browning five shot automatic, chambered for the 2.5" shells. It would function with 2 3/4" shells, but only the roll crip variety. It refused to function with the star crimped plastic shells. I killed a lot of quail and doves, and even some ducks with that old gun. It had the original Browning safety in the front of the trigger guard.



well, I don't recommend it but the auto five could maybe rechambered for 2 3/4 long shells

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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xausa
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: lancaster]
      #347806 - 12/12/20 10:33 AM


"well, I don't recommend it but the auto five could maybe rechambered for 2 3/4 long shells"

I know, I had mine converted around 1959. In addition to the other changes, the ejection port had to be enlarged to clear the much longer star crimped empty shells.

One of the difficulties with the 16 gauge in this country is the problem of finding ammunition. Most stores stock a very limited amount, since there is so little demand for it, and there's not much load selection, either.

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DarylS
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: xausa]
      #347809 - 12/12/20 11:36 AM

I found the Federal 2 3/4" 1 ounce #6 loads patterned very nicely in my 1900 Husky SxS, with modified choke, left barrel, straight rifled right barrel.
It was actually chambered 2 5/8" & did not mind the 1/16" longer standard 2 3/4" ammo(slightly shorter than 2 3/4"cases actually).

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Trailboss
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: DarylS]
      #348270 - 21/12/20 10:13 PM

Yes, 16 gauge is not stocked by anyone in any quantities or shot size. I've known that since the late sixties. You can thank the 20 gauge for that. I don't dislike the 20, I own them in sxs, o/u and bolt. Like the rest of my battery, all are used where and when I think they are appropriate. But I digress, the 16 gauge and it's diverse diet desert. I started reloading for it in 1982, one year after starting to load shot shells. I've always purchased them when an where I found them whether I needed them or not. I've got factory loaded in just about every shot size ever loaded and most factory loads are also in hulls that are standard reloading fare. I'm also always on the lookout for Winchester or Federal paper that's new unfired pre-primed from the 50's or 60's still in original boxs. As most have to admit to themselves, as begrudgingly as it may be, I'm bruising much easier these days than I did in my younger years so I'm shooting more of the 16 now than years past and frankly enjoying it to boot.

Edited by Trailboss (21/12/20 10:19 PM)

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aromakr
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Re: The rise of the sub-gauge shotguns-- 28, 20 and 16 [Re: Trailboss]
      #348778 - 03/01/21 12:37 AM

All my father ever used was a 16 gauge and I no longer own a 12, my favorite is a 28 and I do own a fine fox 20 unfortunately its chocked for felt wads and with plastic wads it shoot like a rifle out to about 30-35 yards.

Bob

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