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NitroXAdministrator
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How not to shoot a double rifle
      #346449 - 03/11/20 03:34 AM

How not to shoot a double rifle

https://www.facebook.com/742274039185075/videos/687082041709031/?t=31

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John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Daryl_S
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #346457 - 03/11/20 04:14 AM

WOW, just WOW!

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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #346459 - 03/11/20 04:29 AM

Quote:

WOW, just WOW!




Limp wrist/grip... probably a liberal..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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3DogMike
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: Ripp]
      #346463 - 03/11/20 05:15 AM

Ouch........but good for a laugh.
(Biden voter for sure)
- Mike

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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85lc
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
      #346466 - 03/11/20 09:03 AM

In the early 1970s, I worked with a construction superintendent that had spent some 20 years working, filming wildlife and hunting in Africa. He had filmed most of his hunts.

One of the interesting hunts that he filmed involved another hunter shooting an elephant with a borrowed double rifle in 600NE. The other hunter may not have been familiar with double rifles. He put two fingers in the trigger guard. Pulling the front trigger put pressure on his other finger, causing it to pull the second trigger. In the movie, it appeared that both barrels fired simultaneously, spinning the hunter to the ground. I was told that the hunter broke his collar bone, ending his hunt.

As a kid, I did that on my first dove hunt, twisting to follow a dove; only to pull two triggers in my dad's SxS shotgun. Luckily, I just landed on the ground. The dove escaped unharmed.

--------------------
RB


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500Boswell
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: 85lc]
      #346469 - 03/11/20 10:59 AM

Reminds of seeing my younger brother who was 13 or 14 at the time fire a Greener 12 gauge shotgun, as it recoiled the gun went into the air and landed on the ground, with his face like he'd just seen a ghost !

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Daryl_S
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: Ripp]
      #346470 - 03/11/20 11:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

WOW, just WOW!




Limp wrist/grip... probably a liberal..




My first post on this said exactly that - limp wristed wimp, but I deleted it and made it less judgmental - LOL

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Marrakai
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #346484 - 03/11/20 05:38 PM

Not to mention a loaded off-safe nitro double rifle being scrabbled-for in mid air, and likely hitting the deck pointed who-knows-where, and at who-knows-who!

Bloody scary stuff!!

Lets just hope he doubled it. At least then when he grabs it out of the air by the trigger-group it wouldn't kill him or anyone else!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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xausa
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #346487 - 03/11/20 09:53 PM

I once had my Krieghoff .458 WM double on me. I did not have two fingers in the trigger guard and it didn't strum fire, since both holes in the target were only about an inch from each other. When a rifle doubles, the recoil doesn't double, it quadruples. The recoil is related to the square of the recoil velocity, and when the velocity doubles, as with a double, then the recoil energy is four time as great. Nevertheless, I didn't fall down or lose control of the rifle. I took a step backward and my feet got tangled up and I went to the ground. Both the rifle and I were undamaged.

We could only conclude that a bit of dirt had somehow gotten into the action, because after a good clean, it has never doubled again, and that was fifty years ago.


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Postman
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: xausa]
      #346491 - 04/11/20 12:16 AM

The good news is that the shooter was properly clocked in the head with the barrels!!! Hopefully that is sufficient retribution for misusing a double rifle in such a manner.

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LRF
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: xausa]
      #346533 - 05/11/20 04:42 AM

Quote:

.... When a rifle doubles, the recoil doesn't double, it quadruples. The recoil is related to the square of the recoil velocity, and when the velocity doubles, as with a double, then the recoil energy is four time as great.




I ran this past 2 senior mechanical design engineering from Honeywell who I worked with before I retired. They disagree. I copied exactly what was said and emailed it to them:

"Nope. I don't buy it at all.

It is true that that kinetic energy is 1/2mv^2.

You are not doubling the velocity simply because there are two projectiles, as is proposed down below, you are doubling the mass of the projectile (i.e. 2m), and both projectiles will be moving at the effectively the same velocity. So, the energy will be doubled."

and

"Conservation of energy. Each bullet has a specific, and in this case equal, amount of energy. The kinetic energy doubles from firing 2 bullets simultaneously. The kinetic energy of the gun in recoil doubles vs firing one bullet, so the velocity of the gun increases by the square root of 2 (1.414), not by 2.
Force acting on the rifle is equal to the force acting on the bullets and F=ma. Acceleration of each bullet is unchanged from firing each one separately or together, and each is equal. You have the mass of 2 bullets firing instead of one. So the force becomes F=ma+ma=2ma. So the force doubles and the recoil doubles.
Equivalently, force = change in momentum = mv/t. Here's another equation showing velocity. By firing 2 bullets simultaneously, F = mv/t + mv/t = 2mv/t. So the force doubles and the recoil doubles."


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vykkagur
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: LRF]
      #346541 - 05/11/20 09:34 AM

Either way, I think we can all agree that .458WM times two is still one bloody great thump!

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Daryl_S
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: vykkagur]
      #346542 - 05/11/20 10:29 AM

He was holding the forend back just in front of the action, not gripping the barrels at all, with just the wood on/in his fingers.

Do we know that both barrels went off?

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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: vykkagur]
      #346543 - 05/11/20 10:31 AM

I have had double discharges with my .45 NE mostly before the trigger was fixed. I also started to use the rear trigger first when I thought about it.

One feels a heavier push in the shoulder. And usually one has to take a step backwards. I know then or suspect it was a double discharge, the step backwards is the tell.

No throwing the rifle out of my hands while some idiot.

A lighter person might feel it more. But one must be really limp wristed to have the rifle fly out of one's hands like that.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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LRF
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #346558 - 05/11/20 01:50 PM

I have a friend, Colin F., who worked for Holland & Holland in the 1980's as an apprentice. One of his jobs was regulating double rifles. He told me of a number of super works of art he had the pleasure of regulating. He had a 470 NE double of him and it broke his collar bone. It was due to a trigger flaw and he was not happy at all with the trigger smith who was responsible. It was enough to convince him to go back to school and get his engineering degree. He now is an engineering director of a company in London. His thought was that happening once in his lifetime was enough.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: LRF]
      #346559 - 05/11/20 04:11 PM

Quote:

He had a 470 NE double of him and it broke his collar bone.




Pffffffft, Don't believe it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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xausa
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: LRF]
      #346563 - 06/11/20 12:55 AM

Recoil Energy Calculator
Use this calculator to calculate the recoil on you rifles, handgun, and other firearms. After you input the necessary data such as the bullet weight, bullet velocity, powder charge weight, and the firearm weight it will output the recoil impulse, recoil velocity, and the recoil energy of the firearm. With this data you can estimate the felt recoil of a specific firearm and cartridge. Remember that "felt recoil" may be a little different from these numbers because felt recoil depends on the design of the firearm, how you hold it, recoil pads, and other factors. Use the chart below to see the recoil energy of common cartridges. Also you may create your own recoil chart and share it with others.


Bullet Weight:
500
(gr)
Bullet Velocity:
2150
(fps)
Powder Charge Weight:
78
(gr)
Firearm Weight:
9.5
(lbs)
Recoil Impulse
6.5
(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity
22.03
(fps)
Recoil Energy
71.65
(ft.lbf)

Bullet Weight:
1000
(gr)
Bullet Velocity:
2150
(fps)
Powder Charge Weight:
156
(gr)
Firearm Weight:
9.5
(lbs)
Recoil Impulse
13.01
(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity
44.06
(fps)
Recoil Energy
286.6
(ft.lbf)


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85lc
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: xausa]
      #346567 - 06/11/20 04:09 AM

Interesting calculation. The recoil energy of a double fire is 4x that of a single fire. 286.6 '# seems like a lot of energy to absorb.

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RB


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: 85lc]
      #346633 - 08/11/20 08:38 PM

That video seems odd to me. I doubled my .500 H&H the first time I fired it. It never did it again and it must have been my error but whist I got spun about 40 degrees to my right it didn't hurt. p.s. I weigh 10 1/2 stones. He can't have been holding it properly, best, Mike p.s. my Holland had a skeleton butt plate so these reports of breaking collar bones doesn't seem to wash though JA Hunter managed it but he says it was his fault since he stood against a tree behind him !!

Edited by Mike_Bailey (08/11/20 08:47 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: LRF]
      #346634 - 08/11/20 10:52 PM

Quote:

I have a friend, Colin F., who worked for Holland & Holland in the 1980's as an apprentice. One of his jobs was regulating double rifles. He told me of a number of super works of art he had the pleasure of regulating. He had a 470 NE double of him and it broke his collar bone. It was due to a trigger flaw and he was not happy at all with the trigger smith who was responsible. It was enough to convince him to go back to school and get his engineering degree. He now is an engineering director of a company in London. His thought was that happening once in his lifetime was enough.




I wonder if one held the buttstock away from one's "collar bone" and it had no recoil pad, if it could happen?

I still doubt it. And why would anyone hold a rifle OFF one's shoulder or collar bone?

Certainly we see some people unused to rifles hold rifles very funnily but ....

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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3DogMike
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #346636 - 09/11/20 01:24 AM

Bruised shoulder or collar bone.......sure. Broken in normal circumstance? I doubt it.

Whenever I let someone not accustomed to a big rifle try any of mine I will always admonish them to:
“keep their nose away from their thumb, pull it hard back into their shoulder, and grip it like they mean it”.
That and I load only 1 round in a double.

Have had smallish men and 5’ 5” women try them (NOT on a bench of course) and never have had one lose total control of the rifle.
A step back, spun partly sideways, barrels pointed 40° up at the sky.......but never lose grip and get clonked in the face, or actually drop it.

I, or one of my big bore shooter buddies, will stand at their side and slightly behind at the ready to catch the rifle .......just in case.

-Mike

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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mauserand9mm
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
      #346816 - 13/11/20 08:37 PM

I've doubled my 500NE and it caused me to walk backwards a couple of steps. Apart from developing an attitude not to do that again, I was otherwise unharmed.

A friend of mine doubled it repeatedly for 6 or 8 shots in a row (ie 3 or 4 times) - he's got short fat fingers, with part of one missing, and he somehow got both triggers at the same time. Didn't scare him off. I was standing right next to him spotting for him and noticed him disappear completely from my peripheral vision every time it happened.


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grandveneur
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #346826 - 13/11/20 10:58 PM

My Double Rifle caliber 577 Nitro Express has doubled once. I fell over but still held the gun. No injury , my worries as well as those of the others shooters on the stand were devoted to the rifle that luckily survived it.

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ducmarc
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: grandveneur]
      #346840 - 14/11/20 11:55 AM

like being scoped, proper stance hold tight but don't have to choke it to death.shot my new toy a few days ago.470 cogswell and harrison (pictures coming soon) wacks pretty good but hit the milk jug a 50 yrds and did a quick follow up shot into the plastic. nothing unmanagable. now that damn 8.5 lb high wall i built in 45-120 stuffed completely full of blackpowder through a drop tube and a 525 caster on top now that has feelings.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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ducmarc
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: ducmarc]
      #346841 - 14/11/20 12:01 PM

my guess is a 870 pump full of 3 inch buckshot would have left his hands too.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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Daryl_S
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: ducmarc]
      #346842 - 14/11/20 12:13 PM

I agree ducmark. This bloke and the SxS rifle was just like the guy shooting the .460 WTBY TC Contender pistol. Barely handing on to it and it just disappeared behind him at the shot.
Limp wrists.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: ducmarc]
      #346849 - 14/11/20 01:43 PM

Quote:

my guess is a 870 pump full of 3 inch buckshot would have left his hands too.




Ha ha.

The guy is probably one of those "once a year SAf PHs".

No slur on real SAf PHs.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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BigBoomer
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: ducmarc]
      #346898 - 16/11/20 03:11 PM

Jeez...what a kick. That could be a busted collarbone right there.

--------------------
Up the river, down the river


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Gankai
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: ducmarc]
      #347028 - 21/11/20 03:50 PM

No one noticed he was a lefty shooting a right handed rifle. The cheek plate is sticking into the air and all the triggers are inclined at the wrong angle. You would almost have to wrap your finger around the trigger to pull it and could easily strum them if you grabbed the front trigger by ignorance. An ill fitting large caliber weapon is all the things a double rifle is not.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: How not to shoot a double rifle [Re: Gankai]
      #347030 - 21/11/20 08:09 PM

Quote:

No one noticed he was a lefty shooting a right handed rifle.




I knew it when I posted the video.

An excuse for not being able to control the rifle.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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