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I would guess MILLIONS of roos have fallen to the .306 over the last hundred years.

Added to this the excellent variants, the .25/303, .27/303 and others.

Filing off the tip of those FMJs does make some (possible erratic) improvement.

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Growing up we were always subjected to horror stories of guys trying to make FMJ's into soft points. Since the MJ is not really F, being open at the base, the story goes you would blow out the soft core and be left with the empty jacket in the bore. Then, you chamber the next round.... (cue ominous music)

I remember as a kid seeing an article in one of the shooting magazines about the .303 in Australia, entitled "The Ruin of the 'Roo".

And I'm surprised that no one, not even from Down Under, picked up on the Dinki Di dog food reference!

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Yes - we've all heard about the filed .303 ammo & what drastic things "could" happen. This is for information only, not a slight on your posting.
In one of his books, likely #1, P.O.,Ackley experimented with this very thing and tried to get a bullet to leave the jacket in the barrel. He noted he ended up filing off the entire nose, down to straight shank portion and could not get the Enfield to leave the jacket in the bore. He ended up driving a filed bullet into the bore with a rod, then melting the core out, then firing another round through the rifle. He said nothing untoward happened, other than slight bulge where the jacket was still in the bore, with the round sailing out the muzzle normally.

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I only file back, angle grind back to show the lead.

And also have done so with 7.62x39 FMJ ammo.

A reason I mentioned erratic performance, sometimes expand, other times still act like a FMJ.

The infamous dum dum rounds were .303's btw ..... a X cut in the tip.

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Wasn't Dum Dum the name of the company which sold soft point ammo in India, thus the naming of expanding ammo Dum Dum?

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Dum Dum Arsenal
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dum Dum Arsenal
Industry Munitions
Headquarters Dum Dum in modern West Bengal, India
Key people Captain Neville Bertie-Clay
The Dum Dum Arsenal was a British military facility located near the town of Dum Dum in modern West Bengal, India.[1]

The arsenal was at the centre of the Indian Rebellion of 1857, caused in part by rumours that the paper cartridges for their muzzle-loading rifles, which they were expected to bite open, were greased with pig lard (a problem for Muslims) or cow fat (a problem for Hindus).[2]

It was at this arsenal that Captain Neville Bertie-Clay developed the Mark IV cartridge, the so-called "Dum-dum bullet", a soft-point bullet, and a hollow point version designed to mushroom on striking. This was one of the first series of expanding bullets for military use. They were later banned in warfare by the Hague Convention as being "too inhumane."

On 7 December 1908, a serious, accidental explosion occurred at the Dum Dum arsenal, resulting in the death or serious injury to about 50 workmen.[3][4]

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I was taught when young the "dum dum" was a .303 with an X cut in the tip. Being found with them in WW1 by the enemy would result in a cruel death being inflicted on the POW.

True?

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Not only did I cut and file the tips off literally thousands of FN-49 headstamped .303 military surplus ammo in my youth, I drilled a 1/16th inch hole anout a quarter-inch in to make them hollow-points. I do remember deliberately NOT using a 1/8th drill bit for fear of possible core separation in the bore, so assume I read that somewhere during the 1970s.

Bagged plenty of roos and pigs in North Queensland with my old Lee Speed in those days, a plain-jane No.3 pattern that still occupies a space in my gunsafe.

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Exactly, vykkagur.

Haven't heard it being used for many decades, now.

The connotation being a "fragmenting" bullet or a bullet causing massive damage.

They say "Ohhhhhhhhhhh - that's a DumDum."

Then I say, "no you are".

lol

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^^^ ^^^


Usually spoken with a horrified tone of voice, suggesting the user was a ruthless and sadistic assassin. Much like current citizens view semi-automatic rifles.

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I would guess MILLIONS of roos have fallen to the .306 over the last hundred years.

Added to this the excellent variants, the .25/303, .27/303 and others.

Filing off the tip of those FMJs does make some (possible erratic) improvement.

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Growing up we were always subjected to horror stories of guys trying to make FMJ's into soft points. Since the MJ is not really F, being open at the base, the story goes you would blow out the soft core and be left with the empty jacket in the bore. Then, you chamber the next round.... (cue ominous music)

I remember as a kid seeing an article in one of the shooting magazines about the .303 in Australia, entitled "The Ruin of the 'Roo".

And I'm surprised that no one, not even from Down Under, picked up on the Dinki Di dog food reference!

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Give me time. Just read this and was going to comment on the Dinki Di dog food courtesy of Mad Max from memory. The ole roo meat went into a lot of things including meat pies etc. Those meat pies with roo meat were some of the best pies I have ever eaten. Very healthy as well. The roo meat has around 0% cholesterol in them Extremely lean.

I was always taught-right or wrong -that Dum Dum bullets came from the Dumb Dumb arsenal in India. Hear/read 2 versions and both have a ring of truth. One was they were FMJ with the nose drilled or X cut into them and the other they were softs with an X cut in them. They all expended and caused horrific wounds so were banned by, first a mutual agreement (hate to think what threats brought this on)then by international convention.

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Yes - .25/303 or .243/303 would be good choices.
I think also the .27/303 (I have a ctg. in my collection with that head stamp) would also be a good roo/pig/goat/fallow deer rifle.

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The reasons the .243 with say 70 or 75 gr HPs, or .25 with say 75 to 87 gr HPs, was good for roos was the fragile projectile needs to stay in a chest of a roo and not exit to damage the skin on the far side. Fragile SPs as well.

Brain shots of course damage neither hide nor meat. At closer range and if the rifle was accurate enough.

.22/250s and .220 Swifts were also popular of course. And effective, But IMO and others, lack some of the power needed for consistency, a reason a .243 was preferable.

I wonder what is used today, and how many .223s?

I do think a .25/303 in a nice cutdown SMLE would make a nice vintage ex-mil rifle. And useful for medium game ferals and smaller deer species. The ten shot mag is also useful.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (15/07/21 02:29 PM)

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Give me time. Just read this and was going to comment on the Dinki Di dog food courtesy of Mad Max from memory. The ole roo meat went into a lot of things including meat pies etc. Those meat pies with roo meat were some of the best pies I have ever eaten. Very healthy as well. The roo meat has around 0% cholesterol in them Extremely lean.

I was always taught-right or wrong -that Dum Dum bullets came from the Dumb Dumb arsenal in India. Hear/read 2 versions and both have a ring of truth. One was they were FMJ with the nose drilled or X cut into them and the other they were softs with an X cut in them. They all expended and caused horrific wounds so were banned by, first a mutual agreement (hate to think what threats brought this on)then by international convention.

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They all expended and caused horrific wounds so were banned by, first a mutual agreement (hate to think what threats brought this on)then by international convention.

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While true, the real reason FMJs are used and not SPs or HPs or other expanding bullets, is because of military strategy and logistics. A wounded enemy needing enemy care, is far more resource consuming than a dead body.

It is funny to think, that while grenades, mines, anti personal artillery and other horrendous weapons causing "horrific wounds" as well are not considered cruel, expanding bullets are "too cruel" to be used.

If being captured with expanding ammo causes the POW to be "adversely" treated by his captors, I wonder if any other sort of weapon also gets a similar result? Serrated bayonets?

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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They all expended and caused horrific wounds so were banned by, first a mutual agreement (hate to think what threats brought this on)then by international convention.

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While true, the real reason FMJs are used and not SPs or HPs or other expanding bullets, is because of military strategy and logistics. A wounded enemy needing enemy care, is far more resource consuming than a dead body.

It is funny to think, that while grenades, mines, anti personal artillery and other horrendous weapons causing "horrific wounds" as well are not considered cruel, expanding bullets are "too cruel" to be used.

If being captured with expanding ammo causes the POW to be "adversely" treated by his captors, I wonder if any other sort of weapon also gets a similar result? Serrated bayonets?

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Serrated bayonets are not banned specifically, but soldiers in the field very often have their own rules, and modified bayonets are one of the things that could get you (unofficially, of course) shot out of hand. Similar treatments have been known for captured snipers, and especially for those captured who were operating flamethrowers.

In truth, the bullet that the .303 replaced, the .577/450, caused wounds just as devastating as the expanding bullet, simply through sheer size. That was actually cited as justification for the continued use of soft tips. The expanding bullet was devised because the new high-velocity rounds were drilling neat holes through assorted frenzied dervishes and not stopping them before they managed to do mischief. The horrendous effect of large lead projectiles was amply demonstrated by the American Civil War, which killed more Americans than both world wars combined, and produced a huge proportion of amputees. A big chunk of lead smashing into an arm or leg is going to cause massive and irreparable damage.

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Give me time. Just read this and was going to comment on the Dinki Di dog food courtesy of Mad Max from memory. The ole roo meat went into a lot of things including meat pies etc. Those meat pies with roo meat were some of the best pies I have ever eaten. Very healthy as well. The roo meat has around 0% cholesterol in them Extremely lean.

I was always taught-right or wrong -that Dum Dum bullets came from the Dumb Dumb arsenal in India. Hear/read 2 versions and both have a ring of truth. One was they were FMJ with the nose drilled or X cut into them and the other they were softs with an X cut in them. They all expended and caused horrific wounds so were banned by, first a mutual agreement (hate to think what threats brought this on)then by international convention.

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Full marks on the Dinki Di, Rule303!

The earliest design of expanding military .303 bullets was proposed at the Dum-Dum arsenal by an officer in the British Indian Army (not to be confused with the army of the current India). However, expanding bullets were already in widespread use in hunting rounds before that time. The actual Dum-Dum bullet was simply the standard Mk.II FMJ with the jacket removed at the tip, creating a soft-point. (Sound familiar?) It was rejected by the British because the Mk.II was open to the core at the base and they were concerned that (wait for it...) the core would blow out leaving the jacket in the bore.

I think I'm getting an idea where that story started...

The expanding round eventually adopted by the British Army was a hollow-point. By that time, all expanding bullets were called "dum-dum" in the popular mind, the same way we over here refer to all tissues as Kleenex, regardless of who makes them, and the British "hoover" their floors with Dysons. The new bullet had a very short life, its' only major engagement being the Battle of Omdurman, where its' performance was considered "impressive". A protest was immediately launched by ze Germans, on the grounds that the wounds were too gruesome in nature. The following year, expanding bullets were outlawed by the Hague Convention.

Since then, some soldiers were known to have modified their own ammo by removing the tip, at the risk of harsh treatment should they be captured with them in their possession. Similar circumstances occurred in the First World War, when some men pulled their FMJ's and reversed them, seating them point-down in the case. This produced a very effective armour-piercing round, surprisingly, but was still considered a violation.

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I just looked back through this thread and realized that I've just repeated myself, almost verbatim, from what I wrote here a month ago.

I've officially become one of those tedious old farts who repeats his stories over and over again. Sigh.

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