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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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Guncotton
.224 member

Reged: 18/04/05
Posts: 18
Loc: Missouri

Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 N.E.
#34565 - 11/07/05 05:11 AM

I’m sure I’m not the first with this idea but I was thinking can a person buy a 45/70 Ruger #1 and have it re-chambered to a 45-120 (.45 3 1/4) and then load it to the same level as a Rigby .450 3 1/4 N.E.
According to Guns and Ammo “Big Bore Rifles” by Jack Lott the .450 3 1/4 N.E. fired a 480gr R.N. bullet over 70gr Cordite with an ~MV of 2150fps. The closest data I can find is Hodgdon, which lists the 45-120 with a 500gr bullet at 1809fps. Hodgdon lists a 485gr load for the 45/70 but not the 45-120. Is this possible and does any one have smokeless data for the 45-120 and the .450 3 1/4 N.E.

Edited by Guncotton (11/07/05 06:53 AM)

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Questions about the 45-120 and Rigby .450 3/4 N.E [Re: Guncotton]
#34566 - 11/07/05 05:23 AM

Guncotton

The Ruger No 1 can be made into a .450 3 1/4 N.E. as a few exist over here in Aust.
Not sure if they were rebarreled or rechambered.

450 3 1/4 N.E. load data is available from

Any Shot You want - A Square
Graeme Wright's book Shooting / Reloading the British Double Rifle
Accurate Relaoding web site would have load data on all 3 cartridges

Good luck !!!

500 Nitro

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davem3
.300 member

Reged: 10/02/04
Posts: 121
Loc: birmingham,al usa

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 N.E. [Re: Guncotton]
#34579 - 11/07/05 01:59 PM

Check my post on page #2 - 29/03/05, it will give you a lot of good suggestions and thoughts on the subject.
I have a #1 in 45/70 and wanted to rechamber it to .450NE 3 1/4 but decided to rebarrel as the Ruger was a little light (6 1/2 lbs.) and had a 45/70 twist.
I bought an octagon blank, rented the reamer, threaded and chambered it and I am in the process of hand finishing the flats right now.
Still have to make a forearm, mount sights and rust blue it so it will be a while before I can actually shoot the gun but I'll post the results when I do. Dave

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Guncotton
.224 member

Reged: 18/04/05
Posts: 18
Loc: Missouri

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 [Re: davem3]
#34587 - 11/07/05 10:29 PM

Thanks for the replies.

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45LCshooter
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Reged: 15/06/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Kiowa, AL USA

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 N.E. [Re: Guncotton]
#34615 - 12/07/05 03:04 PM

For some reason, they do not list higher pressure nitro loads for the 45-120 but if you look up 458 RCBS, you will find something comparable. There is a fellow that posts on AR by the handle of BadassWallace who had one. He says they can be quite stout.

--------------------
All that's gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost.

--J.R.R. Tolkien

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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 N.E. [Re: 45LCshooter]
#35146 - 28/07/05 01:22 AM

Guncotton: Another solution is to buy a Tropical in .458 Win Mag and have the chamber reamed to .450 NE. I had this done a few years back and the NE reamer cleans up the 458 belt nicely. It is probably the least expensive route to owning a No. 1 in Rigby's NE -- and of course you can shoot black in it if you wish, although it will have a 1:14 twist.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27003
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 N.E. [Re: davem3]
#36011 - 18/08/05 04:49 AM

I think the twist of 20" or 22" is just fine for stout jacketed ammo loads in bullet weights up to 500gr. For shooting the long 550 to 600gr. cast bullets, an 18" or faster twist may be necessary.
: I feel there is a trend today towards overly rapid twists - even as fast as 12" in .50cal, when 24" is all that's really needed to 600gr. weight of bullet.
; I think that rapid twists today are responsible for the tumbling of solids when penetrating through an animal, but have no real proof of that. In my theory, the bullet starts out overstabilized, and the attendant slight yaw promotes tumbing whem striking the animal close in. The fast twists may be necessary for very long range target shooting beyond 400yd., but that's a moot "Plus" for a big game rifle.
: Please correct me if I'm wrong on this theory.
: Unfortunetly, the Ruger .45/70 barrels are very light-weight. I would re-barrel to a heavier weight barrel, 25" long, then chamber for the 3 1/4" Sharps case - .450 Nitro load data would probably duplicate in the RCBS or Bell case.
: I have easily run 500gr. bullets to 2,000fps in an Italian rolling block in .45 3-1/4" brass.
: Brass is available rather reasonably priced from www.trackofthewolf.com

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Guncotton
.224 member

Reged: 18/04/05
Posts: 18
Loc: Missouri

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 [Re: DarylS]
#36788 - 03/09/05 07:04 AM

Actually I was thinking of a re-barrel to 24-26" with a 1:16 or 1:18 twist. As far as your theory goes have a look at this site
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/08articles.html
Don't know anything about the company but what he has to say makes perfict sence.
Your getting that out of a rolling block interesting. Your not that far off from the early cordite loads.

Edited by Guncotton (03/09/05 07:06 AM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 N.E. [Re: DarylS]
#36795 - 03/09/05 09:21 AM

Daryl_S

Re:-
; I think that rapid twists today are responsible for the tumbling of solids when penetrating through an
animal, but have no real proof of that. In my theory, the bullet starts out overstabilized, and the attendant
slight yaw promotes tumbing whem striking the animal close in. The fast twists may be necessary for very
long range target shooting beyond 400yd., but that's a moot "Plus" for a big game rifle.
: Please correct me if I'm wrong on this theory.

Is it the rapid twists or the overly long bullet for the calibre / bullet weight ?
- or a combination of both ? It wuld be interesting to test.

The Big Bore Barnes X Bullets had a problem in that they hadn't stabilised at close range
and so entered animals on an angle (yaw).

500 Nitro

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27003
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 N.E. [Re: 500Nitro]
#36843 - 04/09/05 10:18 AM

Perhaps the yawing Barnes is the result of too rapid a twist?
: On a close shot, we haven't the luxury of allowing the bullet 100 yd. or more to "Go to Sleep" before impacting, somthing most bullets require, whether Barnes or any other make. It is entirely possible, that a slightly slower twist would allow a stable 'launch', but then, I've not a rifling machine nor the money for multiple barrels to do this 'test' witb. I am thinking of large bores here, and certainly not anything smaller than .375.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 N.E. [Re: DarylS]
#36848 - 04/09/05 11:40 AM

Daryl2

Don't know about the Barnes but alot of it has to do with the length of the bullet.

On a close shot, we haven't the luxury of allowing the bullet 100 yd. or more to "Go to Sleep" before
impacting, somthing most bullets require" - Don't agree with you on this one.

I know Big Bore Woodleighs (375+) don't have a problem stabilising within 100 yards - even
5 yards - as I shoot both Targets and DG at 10 yards and out and I know they pentrate
OK which they wouldn't if they were yawing. Have shot 375, 404, 458, 450, 465, 470, 500
including the really long 350gn 375's and 550gn 458's which are long bullets for the calibre.

500 Nitro

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JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 N.E. [Re: 500Nitro]
#41576 - 15/11/05 02:20 PM

An observation for you:

I shot cape buffalo, that was already down and was partly visible, at a hard quartering away angle, at a shallow angle through the spine. From entry to spine was +/- two feet. After the bullet, a 458 500gr Woodleigh solid had penetrated the spine you could see the bullets track below the hide (the buff was lying back up/ belly down but the onside was higher since the buff was lying on a slope). For about 8" it appeared true then the bullet obviously tumbled, spinnng more or less parralel to the ground and hide, a full turn and a bit more based on the track visible through the skin, and coming to rest visible under the skin and at about a 45* angle to the line of travel, which was straight the full length.

I figured the tumble was a result of the velocity loss from passing through 2' of muscle, the spine and another 8" of muscle. Initial distance was about 35yds; initial velocity about 2090fps. The bullet was perfectly round and undeformed with just a bit of lead pushed out the rear.

What are your thoughts?

JPK

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Guncotton
.224 member

Reged: 18/04/05
Posts: 18
Loc: Missouri

Re: Questions about the 45-120 / Rigby .450 3 1/4 [Re: JPK]
#43675 - 11/12/05 03:38 AM

Your bullet being recovered in near perfect condition for the most part I think rules out bullet failure. My initial thought is the tumbling may have been the result flight instability. At 35 yards it is quite possible that the bullets flight had not completely stabilized yet. What leads me to think this is a long time ago a saw a demonstration which involved slow motion filming of the firing of a 30-caliber rifle.
You could see the bullet spinning but what you also saw was a circular yawing of the rear of the bullet. As it turned out the bullets flight did not stabilize until I believe after ~70 yards. Your observation coupled with this may explain what happened. The Woodleigh bullet design uses a Kynoch profile that may also have contributed to it. There is some thought that round nose bullets may have a tendency to be somewhat unstable in tissue. I’m not so sure that this is much of a factor in your case but it’s worth mentioning.

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