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Louis
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Loc: France
Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade?
      #289615 - 30/10/16 08:08 PM

Dear All

I have unsuccessfully been trying to date a Mannlicher Schöenauer M. 1908 ‘detachable stock’ of the British trade that I bought in 2014 in the UK. This rifle – serial number 664, neither bears any Austrian proof / factory marks - only British ones from the London Proof House, nor the name of any British riflemaker or reseller. I contacted in mid-2015 the Proof Master and the Honorary Archivist of the London Proof House however they do not hold any data for rifles proofed in the early 20th century.


I think that I can narrow the production period from 1908 - the first year this model of rifle was marketed, to 1925 when ‘not English made’ markings were adopted ; that’s not very precise.

Another way of getting a more precise idea about the rifle’s production period might be from the front sight. Most of the Mannlicher Schöenauer rifles that we can see have the front sight set at the far end of the barrel (on the right on the below photo), while the front sight of this M. 1908 is set about one inch before the barrel end (on the left on the below photo) ; we can see from time to time such front sights but they are far less common that the more ‘standard’ ones. The earlier ‘fully Austrian’ Mannlicher Schöenauer that I own is a M. 1908 stutzen, manufactured in 1919, which already has the front sight set at the end of the barrel ; could front sights set before barrel end be the characteristic on an early production, possibly pre-WW1 ?


I was wondering whether any Forum member that would own a Mannlicher Schöenauer with such a front sight, which would also bear Austrian proof marks, could tell me in which year their rifle was manufactured ? Or if members had any information to share about such front sights ; in particular, throughout which period they were used ?

Some additional pictures and information about this rifle. It was bought in London in a very good condition and looked from muzzle to butt like a 'standard' Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle, not like some that were heavily modified by British riflemakers in the early 20th century.


The rifle was initially set with Vienner scope mounts and with a Voigtlander riflescope.


The stock was unfortunately broken during the shipment but hopefully replaced by a new made-to-mesure new one, thanks to shipment insurance.


Some pictures of the restored rifle:






I love hunting with classic rifles however I also like modern technology when it comes to rifle scopes. I therefore had the Vienner mounts and Voigtlander riflescope removed - they went to a Forum member in the US, and recently replaced with more easy to use claw mounts and Khales Helia 2-7x36, a modern rifle scope that doesn’t alter the lines of a classic rifle.


Thank you in advance for any information about most likely production period that you may provide.

Best regards.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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Jorgen
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Louis]
      #289618 - 30/10/16 10:55 PM

You have PM. Regards JC Denmark

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kuduae
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Jorgen]
      #289674 - 01/11/16 06:21 AM

Hi Louis,
of course I have seen your rifle on the forum. But as I can not positively date it, I refrained from posting myself. As you asked me directly now, let's give it a try.
The rifle was certainly proofed in Austria too, as required by law. The original proofmarks on the barrel reinforce are covered by the soldered on front scope base sleeve. These "factory" Vienna style mounts were not made by the Steyr factory, but mounting was farmed out to several independent, outworking gunsmithes in the Steyr area.
The only chance for precise dating would be a proofhouse ledger number + year, most often found under the barrel in about an 8 o clock position. Without such a tiny number there, it is mostly guesswork. The Steyr serial number on the right side of the receiver ring is of no help as the Steyr factory started each model over again with "1". Production records are lost.
The front sight with base is the standard type, merely soldered on about 1" back from the muzzle. A feature quite often seen on detachable stock "English models" made for the British market.
The Voigtlaender "Skopar B" originally on the rifle was offered from about 1905 to the mid-1920s.
According to my references the wording NITRO PROOVED was introduced in 1916.
On foreign made guns the London Nitro proof mark "Cleaver over N" was applied with a circled N from 1925 on.
So I dare to guess: Your Mannlicher – Schoenauer M 1908 was most likely made immediately after the end of WW1, maybe about 1920.
Waidmannsheil!
Axel


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: kuduae]
      #289686 - 01/11/16 11:12 AM

Louis, what a lovely rifle with a very nicely made stock. I too like older classic rifles but with modern scopes. I recently purchased a Mannlicher Model 1908 with a full stock and have bought a Swarovski Z3 3-9x36 to go with it. It looks period and is not to big and heavy which would upset the look and the balance of the gun. Well done.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #289687 - 01/11/16 11:22 AM

Louis, where did you get that scope from as Kahles don't seem to list that model on their website.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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GG375
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #289690 - 01/11/16 12:04 PM

Hello Louis

Your experience is chillingly similar to mine. I have bought 3 MS rifles over the years in the UK and had them shipped to me here in OZ. One of them......a M1950 in 9.3x62 was smashed thru the grip en-route from William Evans where I bought it, to the exporter. I ended up having a custom stock fitted here in OZ......and the exact same scope and mount set-up you have.

My 6.5 was bought at Holts and it has the same foresight set-up as your M1905. When I got it, it was scoped with an ancient old scope. It also has been replaced with the same set-up your's now has.

My 9.5 is currently at the gunsmith to have a refurb........and to be scoped to match my other 2.

Cheers.

GG


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GG375
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #289691 - 01/11/16 12:06 PM

Quote:

Louis, where did you get that scope from as Kahles don't seem to list that model on their website.

Waidmannsheil.




It looks like a Kahles CL 2x-7X to me.....same as I have on my rifles. Don't think they are made anymore......you would have to go KX I think......or get one second hand!

Cheers.

GG


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Louis
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: GG375]
      #289721 - 02/11/16 06:39 AM

Waidmannsheil & GG375, thank you for your replies and kind comments:
- Waidmannsheil, Khales stopped producing this 2-7x36 riflescope in late 2015, maybe in order to rationalize their production line as Khales & Swarovski have now joined forces, and not compete internally with the Swarovski 3-9x36.
- GG375, would it be possible to know in which year was produced your Holt's 6.5 that has the same foresight set-up as my 1908?
Best regards.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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lonewulf
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Louis]
      #289741 - 02/11/16 12:46 PM



Don't mean to stick my oar in here but for what it's worth, I have a 1903 MS take down rifle, also with British proof marks, which has exactly the same set-back fore sight as your rifle.

My rifle doesn't have a date of manufacture on it either. However, for various reasons I believe it was probably manufactured somewhere between 1920 and 1925.

Those reasons (which may apply to your rifle but then again maybe not) are:

1) It has a capital 'T' in a circle on the barrel. This mark was apparently put on rifles during or immediately after the First World War.

2) MS sporting rifles weren't made during WW 1, or for a few years thereafter; and

3) Rifles that were imported into the UK were required to be so marked from 1925. My rifle doesn't carry such a mark.

When exactly the set-back fore sight was introduced on MS rifles, I don't know.

Anyway, hope some of this may help.


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50Calshtr
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: lonewulf]
      #289764 - 03/11/16 02:31 AM

Louis,
I have a Watson Bros 1910 375 similar to your '08. It has the same sight about an inch from the muzzle with British proofs only. It is marked "NP" under the cleaver but that is not circled and is marked "Cordite 43-270 MAX" and "375 EX". This probably muddies the water more than helps, but that's what I do best! BTW the brass shield between the swivel and toe is marked "G le B.S. from J. and A. Moat" if that means anything to someone I'd like to know.
Take Care.
GT


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #289773 - 03/11/16 06:24 AM

Thanks Gents, I had a feeling that might have been the answer. Pitty really as it is getting harder now to get good quality scopes which look period and have a smaller objective such as 32-36mm with a narrower magnification range such as those mentioned above. These days everybody seems to want larger objectives with a huge power range. They become quite heavy and very long which doesn't suit a lot of the older rifles in my opinion. It makes the rifles more cumbersome, new ones included.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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GG375
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Loc: Brisbane
Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Louis]
      #289851 - 04/11/16 01:40 PM

Quote:

Waidmannsheil & GG375, thank you for your replies and kind comments:
- Waidmannsheil, Khales stopped producing this 2-7x36 riflescope in late 2015, maybe in order to rationalize their production line as Khales & Swarovski have now joined forces, and not compete internally with the Swarovski 3-9x36.
- GG375, would it be possible to know in which year was produced your Holt's 6.5 that has the same foresight set-up as my 1908?
Best regards.
Louis




Hi Louis
Sorry for the delay..........I stripped her down this morning and unfortunately there is no date of manufacture evident. The only markings on the action are a crown over a V, a T in a circle, the serial # and a 0. On the barrel is 6.5 m/m, another 0 and either a N or a M in a circle.

Oddly, my rifle has a side safety as well as the flag safety.........not sure what that's about.

Cheers mate.

GG


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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: GG375]
      #289853 - 04/11/16 06:23 PM

Your rifle was made after 1908, as it shows on the receiver, (M1908).

It is marked Oesterreichischen Waffenfabrik Gesellschaft Steyr (meaning Austrian Gun Factory Steyr Ltd). The OWG was in 1926 renamed Steyr-Werke AG (i.e. the town of Steyr Works), and in 1934 to Steyr Daimler Puch, (i.e. the names of 3 amalgamated companies). This is what Wikipedia states below:

Die ÖWG wurde 1926 in Steyr-Werke AG umbenannt, welche 1934 mit der Austro-Daimler-Puchwerke A.G. zur Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG fusionierten.

So your gun was made before 1926. My 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer is made in 1920 and is not marked, "Made in Austria" on the receiver. Nor is yours. However my 9.5x56 M-Sch., made in 1927 is. So that would also suggest a date between 1908 and 1926. If it is not marked "Not English Make", as you say, that brings us back a year, to 1925.

If some of the guys who have dated their rifles by the year proof mark look at their receivers, we may get an idea when the "Made in Austria" marking first appeared.

According to Gun Proof in England in Gun Digest 1977, the NP with cutlass is a London mark, 1904-
NITRO PROOVED is 1904-1955.
V with a crown is a London mark, 1637-1955.
CP with a crown, 1637-1955.
NOT ENGLISH MAKE 1925-1955.

The Voightlaender scope may have a DRP number, being the patent number. But sounds like it is an early one, so that doesn't help much.

Best I can do.


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Louis
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #289854 - 04/11/16 08:51 PM

Dear All
Thank you for your replies and information shared, this was much helpful.
My rifle is similar to GG375 and Lonewulf's i.e. no Austrian marks (either proof or factory), British (London) proof marks only, and T in a circle underneath both action and barrel. One must accept - in this case, that it won't be possible to date it more precisely than 1908-1924, in the absence of any available archives from the London Proof House.
Best regards.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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lonewulf
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Louis]
      #289857 - 04/11/16 11:17 PM


Louis

The circled "T" mark on your rifle is Austrian and is an abbreviated form of the word Tiegelgussstahl. According to my source, his denoted the use of a new high grade steel. This mark is thought to have been first used either towards the end of or just after World War 1. However, because MS rifles weren't manufactured during the war and possibly not until about 1920, your rifle couldn't have been manufactured before that date - not if it has a circled T mark. So in your case the starting point is circa 1920. And, as you know, rifles exported to the UK had to be marked "Not English made" from 1925. So, your rifle was probably made between 1920 and 1925.

Edited by lonewulf (04/11/16 11:19 PM)


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Louis
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: lonewulf]
      #289862 - 04/11/16 11:52 PM

Lonewulf, thank you very much.
Best regards.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #345476 - 01/10/20 12:20 PM

Quote:


If some of the guys who have dated their rifles by the year proof mark look at their receivers, we may get an idea when the "Made in Austria" marking first appeared.






The 'Made in Austria' stamp was added in 1924.

From sometime in 1924* and throughout subsequent production, all commercial Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and stutzen were roll stamped with their country of origin on the front receiver bridge.

From 1924 through sometime in 1938, the stamp was 'Made in Austria'. During the 'Anschluss', or Nazi annexation of Austria, they were marked 'Made in Germany', then back to 'Made in Austria' for post - WW2 production through 1972.


1900 through 1924*


1924 through 1938*


1938* through 1945


Post WW2 production.

* I do not know what exact dates the changes occurred, only during which year.

Also, the stamp along the left side rail was changed in 1926:

The company name was changed to Steyr Werke AG in 1926, so any MS receiver with the above stamp and 'Made in Austria' was manufactured between 1924 and 1926.



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Hook
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #345580 - 05/10/20 12:52 PM

Quote:


The 'Made in Austria' stamp was added in 1924.

From sometime in 1924* and throughout subsequent production, all commercial Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and stutzen were roll stamped with their country of origin on the front receiver bridge.

From 1924 through sometime in 1938, the stamp was 'Made in Austria'. During the 'Anschluss', or Nazi annexation of Austria, they were marked 'Made in Germany', then back to 'Made in Austria' for post - WW2 production through 1972.

* I do not know what exact dates the changes occurred, only during which year.




I guess there is always the exception...

I first bought my first M-S, a 1903 stutzen, a couple of years ago and came here to find out what I had. In addition to the great education I received on M-Ss in general and mine in particular, I found that mine was a 1939 build with a 'Made in Austria' stamped on the front receiver ring. The barrel is clearly marked '39', and the rifle seems to be original in every way. I suppose another barrel could have been put on the rifle, but the consensus here at that time was likely a rifle assembled in 1939 using an action completed before the Germans changed the stamping.

It matters not to me! I have a wonderful rifle with a period Hensoldt scope in Akai marked claw mounts that shoots better than I can! It has accounted for one buck the first season I had it but I got skunked carrying it last season. We have a long season here in Alabama and can take a deer a day if you want to shoot does, so I hope to make a lot more meat with it.


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Hook
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Hook]
      #345611 - 07/10/20 08:02 AM

BTW, beautiful rifle Louis!

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Hook]
      #345622 - 07/10/20 02:28 PM

Quote:



I guess there is always the exception...

I first bought my first M-S, a 1903 stutzen, a couple of years ago and came here to find out what I had. In addition to the great education I received on M-Ss in general and mine in particular, I found that mine was a 1939 build with a 'Made in Austria' stamped on the front receiver ring. The barrel is clearly marked '39', and the rifle seems to be original in every way. I suppose another barrel could have been put on the rifle, but the consensus here at that time was likely a rifle assembled in 1939 using an action completed before the Germans changed the stamping.





I suppose I should have included an asterisk and some sort of disclaimer such as;
"There are few or no firm rules to dating Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and stutzen. When you think you've found one, someone else will surely find the exception!"

It seems that much like Willys Overland, Kaiser, and AMC 'Jeep' production, whatever parts were in the bin on whatever given day were used as if to frustrate future cataloguers and historians.

The 'rules' are more like guidelines, it seems, never as easy as 'before serial number X it was like this and after serial number Y it's like that'. Such would just be too easy and the MS do have their mysteries.

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Louis
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Re: Dating a M. 1908 of the British trade? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #345628 - 07/10/20 06:57 PM

Thank you, Hook.

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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