Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

Pages: 1
Louis
.375 member


Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France
Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen
      #345394 - 28/09/20 01:26 AM


I usually start my day in early morning by reading the Forum’s new posts and browsing the web while sipping a jug of coffee, before starting my day’s work; earlier this year in late May, while visiting the website of a German auction house, I stumbled onto a Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1905 stutzen that looked in really good condition and was to be auctioned later in the day. As I already have far too many Mannlicher Schoenauer of every pre-WW2 model (but no M.1900) at home I had made a while ago the decision to stop acquiring any new one, however I could not refrain making a small offer at the silent auction; the entry bid was very low and with my also very low offer I really had no chance of winning the rifle! However later in the day I received an email from the auction house informing me that I was the lucky new owner of the MS 1905 stutzen I had bid for; this silent auction had probably attracted limited attention at the time of the COVID crisis’ first peak in Western Europe, in May 2020!

I received the rifle in early August; she looked fine but was entirely coated with a crust of dust hardened by desiccated lubricant. Instead of taking the risk to damage her while attempting to dismantle her in that condition, I spread her abundantly inside/outside with gun oil, then rolled her into rags and let her soak for some time.



Some days later the crust had melted and the rifle was easily stripped thoroughly - but the trigger mechanism that I never take the risk to dismantle, and cleaned again and again until reaching an acceptable result.











Apart from minimal usual dings & dongs to the wood (very dark in some areas, probably saturated with gun or storage oil) this Model 1905 stutzen is in perfect condition and will pair perfectly with the Model 1905 take-down (see http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post342767 ) I already have on the gun rack:
- The bore, the action and the rotary magazine look to be factory-new; only the folding leaves of the rear sight, the front sight ramp and the scope’s front & rear bases (parts probably made out of iron and not of high quality steel) bear some limited signs of “orange peel” – as one says in French, but this is only superficial and will be easily remedied with some polishing and a new bluing.
- All parts bear the same serial number, even the smallest ones on the bolt head and the two small metal disks inserted in the wood on each side of the front sling swivel.
- This rifle holds a removable front sight cover I have never seen yet on MS rifles - I can’t tell if it’s original (I saw some very similar models on K98 rifles) as well as a probably factory issued cleaning rod.







- It is also fitted with a foldable peep sight in prefect working order.







The most unusual things with that rifle are that she bears no proof marks, is fitted with both an express rear sight with distances in yards and German double-triggers - an uncommon combination, and is fitted with scope bases a model of which I have never encountered yet:

- The rifle – which doesn’t seem to have been altered, bears absolutely no proof mark. The only visible marks are some factory ones: “+05Y” & “-05X” (I think related to adjustment between barrel & action), “472” (serial number), “T” circled (I think for “Tiegelgussstahl”, a specific quality of steel at that time in Austria), and “V” circled on the barrel (of which I do not know the meaning and would appreciate feedback). It looks as the rifle has left the factory without going through the Vienna Proof House!



- Express-type rear sight: fixed front leaf marked “200 Yrds” and two folding leaves marked “300” & “400”.



- Scope bases for which any information on type and associated scope mounts would be welcomed, see photos hereafter:











Last, it would be good to know when this rifle was manufactured:
- Serial number 472 is obviously low; my other MS 1905 dated 1922 bears S/N 6287 (assuming that production fully stopped during and shortly after WW1, c. 6500 MS 1905 rifles manufactured in c. 14 years give an average annual production of 400 to 500 rifles, but this is theory only as production probably varied in time according to market demand).
- Rifle #472 should therefore have been manufactured between 1905 and the immediately following years i.e. 1906 or 1907? Any feedback from owners of MS 1905 with low serial numbers that would bear a proofing date would therefore be welcomed.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: Louis]
      #345395 - 28/09/20 02:33 AM

Thanks for posting the pictures of your Mann., Louis. That is quite a "find", such a low S#.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8664
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: DarylS]
      #345398 - 28/09/20 03:03 AM

the model 1905 is the rarest of this old models, don#t know why it dont have any proof marks at all

try to get the oil out of the wood with a good blow dryer and some acetone. be careful with the heat, just under the temperature it can made damage. allways get some heat on the black spot, wipe away with acetone and do it again. it needs some time!
I can see no problem for a gunmaker/toolmaker to change scope mount parts for this very special base, looks british to me.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DonZ
.300 member


Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 118
Loc: BW
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: lancaster]
      #345400 - 28/09/20 03:33 AM

Louis,

I don't have any answers for you, but will be following this with interest as I have a similar situation. M1910 Stutzen, low serial number, no proof marks. Very interesting!

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
nopride2
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: DarylS]
      #345404 - 28/09/20 04:12 AM

A good machinist could build rings to fit the mounts, it would be expensive.

Dave


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: nopride2]
      #345407 - 28/09/20 05:18 AM

An excellent post, Louis, particularly the detailed photographs. This is just the sort of thing that is of value to the MS community, present and future.

What a fortunate acquisition for both you and the rifle itself. It's great to see a fine and formerly neglected MS in the hands of one who will properly care for and cherish it.

Here are some comments:

First, I really like the 'old style' Prince of Wales grip. I don't know when those were phased out, but it seems to be a feature found only on very early MS. Per prior posts from Kuduae, the production of commercial MS rifles and stutzen of the M1903 and M1905 models began in 1905, along with mass production of the 'Greek Contract' Y1903.

I am envious of your sight hood. It was offered on the pre WW2 MS, but I have seen very few examples 'in the wild' on auction listings or on forums such as this.
Here is one listed in a 1935 Steyr catalog reprint:



There are reproductions available of a later type for the 'postwar' MS: Gunbroker MS Hood

Your folding peep sight (also an original option) has been modified. I can only presume the ball added to the top of it was for very long shots with a stutzen? The 'special folding peep sight' was of the same type used by Westley Richards, who also used the same takedown system as the pre WW2 MS:


Westley Richards peep sight


Peep sight on MS


From 1939 Stoeger - "Special folding peep sight... $12.00", also "sight protector (hood)... $1.00".

The +.05 and -.05 are to match chamber depth of receiver to barrel and are original. Your other MS should be similarly marked. I have no idea. however, what the 'Y' and 'X' suffixes are. You are correct regarding the 'circle T', and I don't recall if I've ever found an explanation of the 'circle V' that seems to be typical on the MS.


I have a wild guess regarding the lack of proofs, but it is just that... an unsubstantiated wild guess... here goes;
With 1905 being the year that Y1903 (military) production commenced, along with the M1903 and the M1905 with its new proprietary cartridge, could this be a prototype that was 'shopped' to ordnance departments in effort to gain a military contract for the 9X56 Mannlicher Schoenauer?
It seems that I have seen photos of M1900 sales samples that were not proofed.




--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #345410 - 28/09/20 10:21 AM

Quote:

...looks british to me



Front scope base is very similar to that on my pre-WW1 Rigby, and the marvelous .350 Rigby that pops up every now and then!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: Marrakai]
      #345411 - 28/09/20 11:17 AM

Louis, lovely rifle for sure. The scope bases are definitely British style. Exactly the same front base as a pre-war Rigby. Having said that, I have taken measurements from an original Rigby and the bases are all in nominal metric dimensions, meaning they were made in Germany for Rigby.

As the rear base has no hook or locking lever you would either need to modify it to accept a lever the same as the front, or the rear ring post height has to be such that it slightly springs the scope tube to place downward pressure on the rear ring. I would always opt for the first option.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #345422 - 28/09/20 06:20 PM

Certainly a very early M1905 as another one in the 1000 range was proofed in 1907.
Early Mannlicher-Schoenauers without Austrian proofs are not uncommon. Gun proof then was to protect the domestic customers. There was little mutual acceptance of foreign proofs then. Austria did not accept German proofs and vice versa. All Rigby Mausers were proofed in England again, though they all were already proofed in Germany. So before 1911 Austrian guns made for export did not need to visit the Vienna proofhouse first. Alas, they were to be proofed in the importing country anyhow, if proof was mandatory there.
Those +/- numbers were for fitting receiver and barrel threads. The circled letters, here V and T (or two Ls back to back?) were personal marks of Steyr factory inspectors, found on all Steyr made guns, commercial and military.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: kuduae]
      #345423 - 28/09/20 07:00 PM

Quote:


Early Mannlicher-Schoenauers without Austrian proofs are not uncommon. Gun proof then was to protect the domestic customers. There was little mutual acceptance of foreign proofs then. Austria did not accept German proofs and vice versa. All Rigby Mausers were proofed in England again, though they all were already proofed in Germany. So before 1911 Austrian guns made for export did not need to visit the Vienna proofhouse first. Alas, they were to be proofed in the importing country anyhow, if proof was mandatory there.






Verrrry interesting.
And educational!

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Louis
.375 member


Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #345431 - 29/09/20 02:57 AM

Dear All

Thank you for your answers and information; that's all very instructive and leads to some more comments and/or questions:

- Lancaster. Thank you for the acetone/hair dryer solution for removing excessive oil from a stock; I will train first on a wood plank before trying on that stock however. Yes, if I feel the requirement one day to have this rifle scoped I will probably go for SEM unless of course finding the proper fit to the existing mounts; something as improbable as finding a honest politician in a traditional political party.

- Rothhammer. Thank you for your comments and catalog page scan; the sight hood is therefore really MS and I also had confirmation that the military rear sight was MS too, I saw it one recently in France, graduated until 1000 m on a M. 1903 stutzen and was really wondering what it was! Well spotted also for the addition on top of the folding peep sight!

- Marrakai and Waidsmannheil. Thank you for identifying the scope bases as early British ones; would you by chance have photos of early Rigby rifles with such scope bases and - icing on the cake, of rifle scopes fitted with scope mounts matching with these bases?

- Kuduae. Thank you for your information about early MS rifles – mainly those to be exported, not always going through the Vienna proof house. I already have a MS 1908 take-down bearing only English proof marks ( http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post289721 ) and I can now understand why! Well noted also for the information on factory markings and for a MS 1905 in the range of #1000 dated 1907.

- DonZ. Please read Kuduae’s comments, which are also instructive about your own un-proofed MS 1910 stutzen.

Thank you again to All.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JDL
.300 member


Reged: 25/12/10
Posts: 247
Loc: Louisiana
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: Louis]
      #345439 - 29/09/20 08:53 AM

Congratulations Louis on getting that nice Stutzen. I don't know if you have these products in your grocery stores but, Easy Off oven cleaner will get the oil out of the stock. Another is K2r Spot Lifter which will pull the oil from the stock.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: Louis]
      #345440 - 29/09/20 09:12 AM

Quote:





- Rothhammer... the addition on top of the folding peep sight!






The special folding peep seems to have been a fairly common 'cost option' as ordered originally on the pre WW2 MS.
Most of those that I have seen, however, have been installed on takedown models. My 1922 proofed M1910 takedown has it along with the removable grip cap with space for a spare sight bead (which is still present).

An entirely similar folding peep was also offered for Mausers in the 1939 Stoeger;


The full page from Westley Richards ad, 1912:


More Mannlicher Schoenauer:






--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: JDL]
      #345463 - 30/09/20 06:03 AM

Beautiful rifle Louis.. Congrats on the purchase..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
paradox_
.375 member


Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 645
Loc: Australia
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: Ripp]
      #345500 - 02/10/20 08:31 AM

Congratulations Louis
A very nice example......just how we like to find them.

Brian, thanks for including the sight options picture.
How common was the tangent ( military) sight option??

Best
Eric

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: paradox_]
      #345515 - 02/10/20 09:55 PM

That will certainly be a very handy little rifle & round to boot when climbing hills or snap shooting in thick forests over your way Louis!
Certainly hope you can score an old period scope to set it off - hopefully some here will spot a likely candidate for you & let you know.
Yes the mounts may take a bit to work out, but you never know it may just fall in your lap like the rifle did!
Don't forget to post the loads when you get around to it too please!
Cheers mate & happy hunting when you get the chance.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Louis
.375 member


Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: 93x64mm]
      #345520 - 03/10/20 02:53 AM

Dear All, thank you for your kind comments and feedback. JDL, well noted for 'Easy Off oven cleaner' and 'K2R Spot Lifter' options for removing oil stains, I will practice first on a wood plank; by chance these products are not subject to ITAR restrictions!
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: paradox_]
      #345529 - 03/10/20 01:43 PM

Quote:


Brian, thanks for including the sight options picture.
How common was the tangent ( military) sight option??

Best
Eric




I'll have to research that a bit.

Offhand, I'd guess that as Stoeger didn't list them among their options on the 'prewar' models while claiming to be the "sole importer" of MS to the US since the late 1920s, that few if any M1903 through M1910 MS were shipped to the United States with military sights. The M1924 and other offerings based on its longer action (oft referred to as 'M1925' these days), which Stoeger referred to as 'High Velocity', had the "British style three leaf sight".



That says nothing, however, of production for domestic (European) markets and as such sights were being fitted by Steyr to the 'Greek' Y1903 and its variants through the years, and as evidenced by the 1935 Steyr Catalog, they were available as ordered options.

Perhaps Kuduae may have insight here?

I now find myself questioning my previous assertion that Louis' peep sight is modified or altered.

I wonder, given the early production of his M1905, if this could be an original early variant.

The peep sight shown in the 1912 Westley Richards ad and in the images of MS that I have posted differ from the peep on Louis' stutzen.

Notice the slide adjustment and notches on the upright portion of the WR peep that is consistent with the MS images I had posted and the peep on my own 1922 dated M1910 Takedown Model:


Typical pre - WW2 MS folding peep


Westley Richards, 1912 advert

Louis' sight:




The 'special folding peep sight' on Loiis' early M1905 stutzen seems to be of a somewhat different configuration than the others. Now I'll have to research to see if I can find M1900 MS with the 'special folding peep sight' to compare.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
amit
.224 member


Reged: 09/06/20
Posts: 2
Loc: hyderabad, India
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: Louis]
      #345553 - 05/10/20 03:42 AM

Hello everyone,

I had seen a MS 1905 for sale a few years back.

What I found most puzzling was the caliber-7.62x63.I did not buy it as it seemed odd. I fed the full magazine many times and it was flawless. What do you think?

Your comments would be most appreciated.

Amit

Edited by amit (05/10/20 03:54 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DonZ
.300 member


Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 118
Loc: BW
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: amit]
      #345557 - 05/10/20 04:14 AM

7.62X63 is .30-06.

It sounds like it was re-barreled.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: DonZ]
      #345567 - 05/10/20 08:10 AM

Quote:

I had seen a MS 1905 for sale a few years back.
What I found most puzzling was the caliber-7.62x63.I did not buy it as it seemed odd. I fed the full magazine many times and it was flawless.



Was it really a MS 1905? The 1905 magazine is too short for a .30-06 aka 7.62x63. I suspect it was a MS 1924 like mine, the rarest of all M-S models. The model 1924, called the Sequoia model in the USA, was the first M-S model with a longer magazine. It was chambered in .30-06 only. Made to a contract with the American importer Sequoia amounting to 1000 examples, these rifles were originally marked M.1924 on the receiver ring. Apparently the deal fell through as serial numbers end in the 500s range and many such rifles remained in stock in Austria. Subsequently Steyr sold them off at a 10% discount, along with their 1925 model. As the 1925 was the first M-S model offered in several calibers, 7x64 and 8x60S at first, the Steyr factory removed the M.1924 inscription and remarked the rifles KAL:7.62x63. Here are two photos of mine, Steyr serial number 299, "factory" mounted with a Kahles Heliavier 4x scope.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
paradox_
.375 member


Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 645
Loc: Australia
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: kuduae]
      #345584 - 05/10/20 08:03 PM

Axel

Below an example I acquired a couple of years ago of a " Sequoia" that made its way to the English Trade ( English Model takedown)
Serial number is above 500, ( #626 , Im going to assume it is part of the Sequoia range) and retains the original 1924 marking to the ring as well as the Sequoia rear sight. The bareel is not marked Sequoia
Rather than highjaclking this thread Il start a fresh one comparisons to my 1925 model....both retailed by the same retailer.

Best
Eric

[image][/image]

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DonZ
.300 member


Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 118
Loc: BW
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: paradox_]
      #345593 - 06/10/20 03:47 AM

I see the system didn't save my edit of "or maybe it's an M1924 or M1925."

You're right, of course. I was thinking that the magazine from either of the above would help in the re-barreling, but neglected the need for a longer action.

I keep saying I'm on the lookout for a Sequoia, but haven't found the right one yet. I did see one some time ago that needed a lot of work, but let's just say the dealer was very proud of it!

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
amit
.224 member


Reged: 09/06/20
Posts: 2
Loc: hyderabad, India
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: DonZ]
      #345662 - 08/10/20 11:37 PM

Thanks for the great replies.

In the photo that I have(sorry for not being able to post)

1. M190_ is clearly visible.(the 5 needed a lot of effort)
2. The ' KAL 7.62x63' was very well engraved(better than on kuduae's gun) and is below the model inscription. Thanks for the photo 'kuduae'.

I had taken a box of new 30-06 rounds and it fed flawlessly.

As DonZ says it is probably been rebarreled in some way.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Early Mannlicher Schönauer Model 1905 stutzen [Re: amit]
      #345689 - 10/10/20 09:49 AM

Quote:


In the photo that I have(sorry for not being able to post)






How to post photos on Nitro Express: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=321070&an=0&page=0#Post321070

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
1 registered and 26 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4660

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved