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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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vandeusenps
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Reged: 02/01/13
Posts: 24
Loc: Illinois
New Paradox, Have Questions!
      #345022 - 12/09/20 11:35 AM

Hey guys, I just purchased an older H&H paradox at an auction. Serial number is 15335, and is a back action hammer gun. The gun is in well used shape, with stock repairs and a small dent about 10" back from the muzzle. Other than that, the bores are bright and shiny, and the rifling at the end of the barrels is sharp.

The gun was delivered today, so I quickly performed a chamber cast, and measured the bore diameter 9" from the breech. Unfortunately, the chambers appear to have been reamed to 2-3/4", and the bores measure .741 (both barrels) 9" from the breech.

I'd like to start developing some paradox loads, and have a CBE mold from Australia that casts solid paradox bullets at .736" and about 790 grains. I have a few questions, and I'd like your opinion:

1. Being that the chamber has been reamed out, should I just load the paradox rounds in un-cut 2-3/4" paper hulls, or stick with the 2-1/2" traditional length? I'm planning on starting with the popular Double Gun Journal load of 21.5 gr. of Unique, nitro card, and cork wads to bring up to length.

2. Regarding the dent, it is fairly small, but when pushing a patch through the bore, increased resistance is definitely noticeable when passing the dent area. I plan on having this professionally fixed with hydraulic tools eventually, but I'm wondering if it is still safe to shoot as-is?

Thanks in advance for your recommendations...if you'd like to see pics of this gun, just go to the Amoskeag Auction website, and go to lot #161 of the latest auction.


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4340
Loc: Nevada
Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: vandeusenps]
      #345023 - 12/09/20 12:19 PM

Congratulations on the new gun.

First thing I'd suggest is to wait for the dent removal before running it.
Next, what did you use for the chamber casting?
Would you consider casting one of the rifle chokes for me?

Have you measured the bores right behind the chokes?

Thanks

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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vandeusenps
.224 member


Reged: 02/01/13
Posts: 24
Loc: Illinois
Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: tinker]
      #345024 - 12/09/20 12:33 PM

Hi Tinker, thanks for your reply. I used the "National Metallic" chamber casting alloy sold by Midwayusa. Funny you ask, I was actually considering casting the rifled portion as well, but then I had second thoughts because I wasn't sure if I could get the casting out easily. I did a chamber cast on a moderately pitted rook rifle a few months back, and had to really wail on the casting to get it out of the chamber.

Are you after groove or bore diameter? The rifling on my paradox is baby-bottom smooth, so I might just do it anyway.

Edited by vandeusenps (12/09/20 12:36 PM)


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tinkerModerator
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: vandeusenps]
      #345025 - 12/09/20 01:17 PM

I'd want to have for my own a complete casting including the bore before the paradox choke, the transition, and at least some length of the rifle choke feature.

Considering the dent, the barrel without the dent would be the one to cast, you'd have to eject it out the breech end.

I'd be happy to reimburse you for the material and your efforts.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: tinker]
      #345037 - 12/09/20 11:34 PM

I would not shoot the dented barrel until it has been fixed. Have a competent workman who uses steel plugs lift the dent for you - the hydraulic ones do not do as good a job. Sometimes simpler really is better.

The mold you have is quite undersize for the bore - usually best results are seen with a bullet half to one thou under the smooth portion. I have not seen a Paradox with this much removed from the bores. If you go to a larger bullet, there's no telling what will happen when it gets to the choke.

Make sure you use the correct alloy of 1 in 15. The ductility of the bullet needs to be correct to go through the choke and perform on game.

Is the gun proofed with 2 3/4" chambers? If not, and it has been reamed to 2 3/4", it's out of proof.


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vandeusenps
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Reged: 02/01/13
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: MikeRowe]
      #345038 - 12/09/20 11:41 PM

Thanks Mike for the reply. Do you know of any gunsmiths who use the steel plug method? I looked at the Champlin Arms/JJ Perrodeux website and they use a hydraulic dent remover.

Have you had your best luck with one thou under bore diameter? The Paradox article I read in the Double Gun Journal recommends three thou under.


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MikeRowe
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: vandeusenps]
      #345041 - 13/09/20 01:30 AM

They'll shoot pretty good at three under, but any more is a bit of a crap shoot. I don't have a Paradox, but have worked with several owners when I made tools for them. Just reporting what they found.

As to the hydraulic dent raising, I've seen more jobs not so good, than how they should be (that is, where you can't tell it was done). I bought one to try it out, and it was far easier and quicker and gave a superior end result to use plugs. With a Paradox barrel, I think it would be critical to get it just right.


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vandeusenps
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: MikeRowe]
      #345045 - 13/09/20 03:44 AM

Thanks Mike for sharing your experiences. Iíll keep that information in mind during my load testing.

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Daryl_S
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: vandeusenps]
      #345048 - 13/09/20 04:19 AM

1st of all, I do not have nor have I loaded for a Paradox rifle. I have loaded for a number of black & smokeless powder rifles using cast bullets, however.
From what I know about alloys and pressure caused obturation, the alloy is very important indeed. This obturation or lack of it, depends on or is also influenced
considerably on the powder used, as to it's speed of ignition, how much "blow" is given to the bullet as it is started down the tube.
Too soft an alloy, and the bullet's obturation is too much, creating extra friction in the barrel. Too little and the fit becomes more critical or the bullet cants or can thus tilt inside the bore.
Thus, a softer alloy might allow a looser fit and shoot OK, whereas a harder alloy might be more critical to fit, depending on the make of powder and/or granulation used if using black powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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MikeRowe
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: Daryl_S]
      #345050 - 13/09/20 04:32 AM

Every Holland Paradox load card I've ever seen says to use 1 in 15.

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85lc
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: MikeRowe]
      #345055 - 13/09/20 08:05 AM

Does it really make any difference if the chamber is extended 1/4" (to 2 3/4") if you use a load pressure suitable for 2 1/2" shells? It just seems that a slightly longer wad column is used.

--------------------
RB


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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 1959
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: MikeRowe]
      #345056 - 13/09/20 09:03 AM

Mike, could you please give us a run down of how you removed the dent using plugs. I have read about it before and understand in principle how it works but would like to hear it from someone I know as to how they did it.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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vandeusenps
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Reged: 02/01/13
Posts: 24
Loc: Illinois
Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #345057 - 13/09/20 09:05 AM

Thanks for the posts guys. Sending the barrels out early this week to get the dent repaired. Should have them back in a week or two. Put together a few loads to try this afternoon. Starting with 21 grains of unique, nitro card wad, and cork wads to bring the 1:20 CBE Paradox slug.

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: vandeusenps]
      #345058 - 13/09/20 09:20 AM

If someone lengthened the chamber you may have to work with 2 3/4" hulls or your accuracy may suffer. Just add an extra nitro card to take up the extra space. Is your gun Nitro proofed.

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vandeusenps
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Posts: 24
Loc: Illinois
Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: Wayne59]
      #345059 - 13/09/20 09:21 AM

Wayne,

This one is not nitro proofed. I went ahead with 2-3/4Ē shells when putting together my loads.


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MikeRowe
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: vandeusenps]
      #345062 - 13/09/20 12:22 PM

Matt
Raising a dent is a relatively simple process.
I have hardened and polished plugs in .001" steps which fit on a rod, so they can be slid up under a dent. The first thing is to get the bore clean - and I mean clean. Everything must be clean.
I find which plug will slide up under the dent with a little pressure, then I take a little brass hammer - also very clean, as is the outside of the barrel - and gently start tapping around the edges of the dent. As soon as the next plug can go up under the dent, in it goes. The process continues until the dent is gone.
If the dent does not come with a gouge or cut into the finish, the finish is usually not disturbed.
If it did, well that'll need a re strike and polish and new brown or black.
You have to realise that a dent has stretched the barrel wall, and part of the art (for want of a better word) is correctly working the metal to get it back where it belongs. This is where the plugs have a decided advantage over the hydraulic tools.


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Wayne59
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: MikeRowe]
      #345087 - 14/09/20 12:14 PM

If they lengthened the chambers correctly using the correct reamer you might have some success using Magtech brass shells and good old BP. If they used a regular 12ga shotgun reamer that also cuts a forcing cone you may have a problem.

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: MikeRowe]
      #345118 - 15/09/20 10:22 PM

Thanks for that description Mike. I wasn't sure if you still used a brass hammer with the plugs but you have described it nicely there. Do the plugs need to be finished to a higher finish than that produced by a cylindrical grinder or is that good enough.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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vandeusenps
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Reged: 02/01/13
Posts: 24
Loc: Illinois
Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #345119 - 15/09/20 10:57 PM

Barrels were sent to a smith yesterday for dent removal. Should be finished within a week or two, once I get them back and test some of the loads I put together, Iíll provide an update here. Thanks again to everyone that responded with comments and suggestions!

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MikeRowe
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: vandeusenps]
      #345124 - 16/09/20 08:11 AM

Matt - yes the plugs need to be a mirror finish.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: New Paradox, Have Questions! [Re: MikeRowe]
      #345128 - 16/09/20 01:54 PM

Ok, thanks Mike. I have a Merkel Combination gun with a 16 bore barrel which has a small dent in it so I will use your method and report back.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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