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Ripp
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375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash
      #344913 - 09/09/20 02:18 PM

https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/375-hh-mag-vs-93x62-cartridge-clash/380081

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Rule303
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Ripp]
      #344918 - 09/09/20 07:08 PM

Utter hog shit. Yes the 9.3X62 is a fine cartridge but it is not a 375H&H. The calibre difference is .009" the calibre difference between a 35Whelen and 9.3X62 is .009". Other differences (Velocity, energy etc)between the X62 and Whelen are less than between the X62 and 375H&H. So using their reasoning the 35Whelen is as good as the 9.3X62 so the Whelen is as good as the 375H&H.

Now if people want to say a properly loaded 9.3X64 is as good as a 375H&H then I would say they are correct.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Rule303]
      #344921 - 09/09/20 07:26 PM

Quote:

Utter hog shit. Yes the 9.3X62 is a fine cartridge but it is not a 375H&H. The calibre difference is .009" the calibre difference between a 35Whelen and 9.3X62 is .009". Other differences (Velocity, energy etc)between the X62 and Whelen are less than between the X62 and 375H&H. So using their reasoning the 35Whelen is as good as the 9.3X62 so the Whelen is as good as the 375H&H.

Now if people want to say a properly loaded 9.3X64 is as good as a 375H&H then I would say they are correct.






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PatagonHunter
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: NitroX]
      #344923 - 09/09/20 08:55 PM

Hello,

Agree about the 9,3x62 is not a .375 H&H. But neither the 9,3x64 is a .375 H&H.
One thing is to compare factory loadings, valid for non reloaders, and other thing is to compare handloads of this three. To make a valid comparison, is necessary to use same barrel lengths and pressures. All these three cartridges, in modern guns, can be reloaded at the same maximum SAFE pressure not matter the factory standards for them. The 9,3x62 has around 74 grs of case capacity, the 9,3x64 84 grs and the .375 H&H 94 grs. This differences show, clearly, that there are no way to obtain same performance between them without use more or less pressures and or more or less barrel lengths.

Best!

PH

Edited by PatagonHunter (09/09/20 08:57 PM)


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93x64mm
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: PatagonHunter]
      #344927 - 09/09/20 10:12 PM

RWS loads for both the 9.3x64 & 375H&H are in the very warm to hot region; true there is virtually a cat's whisker between them at the muzzle (293gn at 2575fps & 300gn TUGS at 2590fps respectively), its only out to about the 150m mark that the 9.3 starts to get in front & then pull away - these are the same projectiles buy the way.
This makes both of them very good especially for plains game with these proper sporting projectiles.
Yes their case sizes are completely different & hence being a larger case the .375 will have to be loaded to a higher capacity to get to the same equivalent pressure, or run at a lower pressure with the same load as its German twin resulting in less performance.
Basically the 9.3x64 is the more efficient round for the performance level that it obtains & doesn't need an action modified to be fitted into.

Good as they are, & they are good cartridges in their own right; the 9.3x62mm still shades the .35Whelan behind - but both are definitely a step behind the 9.3x64 & 375H&H.
Yes there are some who load to insane levels to claim, mine is better than yours - sorry but I have got to factory specs & that is just fine by me!

As a note this info is taken out of the 2007 catalogue when they even advertised .404Jeffery Ammo.
So yes Rule303, I do so heartedly agree!
Cheers
93x64mm


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Daryl_S
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: 93x64mm]
      #344933 - 10/09/20 02:04 AM

Finn Aagaurd once wrote in Africa he could see no difference between the 9.3x62 and .375 H&H & lumped them together. While
I agree with Rule303 on the numbers differences, actual visual similarity on the animals Finn shot, could very well have shown the same actions/reactions.

In other circumstances, there would likely be a difference - or rather should be a difference. That it did not happen with Finn's experience might show his sample size was not large enough, is all.

On game, given similar bullets, the 9.3x64 and .375H&H would/should show virtually identical performance at the ranges both are likely to be used.

IMHO, of course.

My old Oberndorf 9.3x62 made 2,670fps with 270gr. Speers and 2,519fps with 285 Speer Grande Slams. I haven't shot anything with it, yet, nor my new(er) 9.3x62 on a Mk10 Mauser action. I haven't even chronographed that one - yet.

I measured 2, 9.3x62 Sako factory load cases for water capacity and got the same #'s as my .375/06IMP at 78gr. They were fired in a Styer Mann. rifle.

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Daryl


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PatagonHunter
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Daryl_S]
      #344936 - 10/09/20 02:37 AM

Hi Daryl,

I don't remember if you mentioned the powder and load you use with these bullets for that performance. Could you show them?
I also can approach 2500 f/s with 286 grs bullets.

Thank you!

PH


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Daryl_S
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: PatagonHunter]
      #344947 - 10/09/20 10:13 AM

I believe the charge was 68.0gr. BLC2 with a CCI250 primer with the 270gr. Speer, which turned out to be a VERY soft bullet when driven at a low 2,300 fps from my 9.3x57.
My load with the 286gr. was 65.0 BLC2.
I worked up to those from well below and they were quite safe in my rifle.
I see now that Hodgdon only goes to 66.0gr. with the 270 Speer bullet. From what happened to the 270 Speer from my light load in the 9.3x57, I would expect that bullet to fragment badly if it strikes with more than 2,000fps. Vel.

In my .375/06IMP, a charge of 66.0gr. BLC2 delivered a 270 Barnes TSX at excessive speed and I reduced its charge, perhaps not enough and they are still smoking hot at 2,650fps.
It is possible the BLC2 of 2010 is hotter than the BLC2 of 1984.

Both of these rounds have the same capacity of 78.0gr. With identical loads using the same bullet characteristics should produce similar pressures, with the larger bore developing less pressure.
Since I was using the TSX in the .375, that will have increased its pressure somewhat. I was shocked to find 2gr. Less powder(66) in the .375 produced and additional 70fps over the 9.3x62. That scared me so I reduced the load to 63.0 gr. For an even 2,650fps.

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Daryl


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Rule303
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Daryl_S]
      #344949 - 10/09/20 01:09 PM

Daryl I remember reading that from Finn and can not understand his perception but then I don't know the ins and outs of the ammo/components he was using. I know a bloke on Cape York who shoots a lot of game, wild dogs, pigs, wild horse and scrub bulls. He used the 375H&H a lot and went to the 9.3X62. His view is the 9.3X62 is a great cartridge but it is not a 375H&H. He can see the difference in the hit response between the 2 with pigs, horses and cattle. Loads his own and does not run them light on with powder.

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Daryl_S
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Rule303]
      #344954 - 10/09/20 03:18 PM

Rule303 - thanks for the response & acknowledgement of Finn's article. I don't know and cannot put forth my own experience between the two, although I figure he was using factory ammo, so something less than 2,340fps with 286's and those should not compare with either 2,640fps 270's nor 2,500+ fps for some 300's from the .375. That just doesn't make sense, although the 9.3 mm 286's are close to .375 300's, than 270's.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Daryl_S]
      #344957 - 10/09/20 06:21 PM

All these reasonably close calibre and cartridge choices come down to a few things,

Ballistic science.

Given an equally good well constructed bullet, of the same section density, driven at the same speed it should penetrate equally. A wider calibre bullet will kill better in these circumstances Fact.

Whether a .358 or .366 or .375 or .416.

Of course for the same SD the bullet weight must be more in larger calibres.

So a 9.3x62 in .366 pushing a lighter bullet say in the same SD maybe 286gr, as a .375 pushing a 300 gr same SD (?) bullet faster is an inferior ballistic science choice. Because velocity is less and calibre and wound channel is less. Fact. Simple.

Does it mean anything less or different for an animal? If you are already overkilling an animal probably not. If the cartridge is marginal already, probably yes in some cases.

Does it mean anything to rifle design and useability? Yes,. a shorter cartridge can be used in a shorter more usable rifle. A big difference? Not really unless a different rifle design is available, eg a semi auto, lever action, shorter rifle etc.

Note I have assumed such things as equally effective bullet construction. Not always a given.

Availability of components? A completely different scenario.

All this is on the margins. A step by step marginality. Not a big difference between a 9.3x64 and .375 H&H. A small but practical difference between a 9.3x62 and .375. A bigger difference to a .358 and .375. A large difference between a .375 and .338 etc.

The main choices here are legality, history, what you like for some reason, rifle design etc. I prefer the .375 for its British history and vintage. It is effective. I have one, a big consideration. It is very very accurate. A classic design. A bit unusal, it is a standard action, so does need experience in loading the magazine. The narrel was an odd one as previously detailed. But it all works.

I have thought of a 9.3x62 but really do I need one if I have a .375? No. The .375 is better anyway. Why not actually use the existing rifle more and actually hunt with it more! A .375 bolt action makes a wonderful second rifle to my .450 double rifle.

However these sorts of articles give us an opportunity to argue so are good value.

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John aka NitroX

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Rod4861
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: NitroX]
      #344967 - 10/09/20 07:46 PM

As has been said by others the 9.3x62 is NOT a 375H&H. But it is very nearly almost. I own rifles chambered for both cartridges and love both.

IMO the biggest thing that the 375H&H has going for it over the 9.3x62 is that, should you need to buy ammunition in far flung places, your more likely to be able to obtain cartridges for the 375 than the 9.3.


Rod


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Ripp
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: NitroX]
      #344971 - 10/09/20 11:37 PM

Quote:

All these reasonably close calibre and cartridge choices come down to a few things,

Ballistic science.

Given an equally good well constructed bullet, of the same section density, driven at the same speed it should penetrate equally. A wider calibre bullet will kill better in these circumstances Fact.

Whether a .358 or .366 or .375 or .416.

Of course for the same SD the bullet weight must be more in larger calibres.

So a 9.3x62 in .366 pushing a lighter bullet say in the same SD maybe 286gr, as a .375 pushing a 300 gr same SD (?) bullet faster is an inferior ballistic science choice. Because velocity is less and calibre and wound channel is less. Fact. Simple.

Does it mean anything less or different for an animal? If you are already overkilling an animal probably not. If the cartridge is marginal already, probably yes in some cases.

Does it mean anything to rifle design and useability? Yes,. a shorter cartridge can be used in a shorter more usable rifle. A big difference? Not really unless a different rifle design is available, eg a semi auto, lever action, shorter rifle etc.

Note I have assumed such things as equally effective bullet construction. Not always a given.

Availability of components? A completely different scenario.

All this is on the margins. A step by step marginality. Not a big difference between a 9.3x64 and .375 H&H. A small but practical difference between a 9.3x62 and .375. A bigger difference to a .358 and .375. A large difference between a .375 and .338 etc.

The main choices here are legality, history, what you like for some reason, rifle design etc. I prefer the .375 for its British history and vintage. It is effective. I have one, a big consideration. It is very very accurate. A classic design. A bit unusal, it is a standard action, so does need experience in loading the magazine. The narrel was an odd one as previously detailed. But it all works.

I have thought of a 9.3x62 but really do I need one if I have a .375? No. The .375 is better anyway. Why not actually use the existing rifle more and actually hunt with it more! A .375 bolt action makes a wonderful second rifle to my .450 double rifle.

However these sorts of articles give us an opportunity to argue so are good value.




John
Your last point is one reason I posted this.. KNEW it would draw some crossfire.. keeps the site "lively"..

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crshelton
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Ripp]
      #344983 - 11/09/20 04:48 AM

Just another "pay the rent" article.
Gun writers must write to be paid and since the article was printed, this author must have been paid.

Personally, I do not care which of these two cartridges is best as neither is of interest or important to me for hunting in Africa or elsewhere. I use different guns and ammo.

Pardon my bad attitude, but the older I get, the less patience I have with such tripe.

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Rule303
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: crshelton]
      #344985 - 11/09/20 07:05 AM

Yep just another "pay the rent" article to us. However as younger people join the ranks information/knowledge needs to be passed on and this is one one of education those. Hopefully it will inspire a few to do their own research.

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EDELWEISS
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Rule303]
      #344988 - 11/09/20 09:46 AM

All these comments and no one has mentioned that 375 H&H is the minimum legal cartridge for Dangerous Game in RSA (and I think Zim).

I love my 35 Whelen but theres no way Id ever compare it to my 375 H&H. Both are great cartridges just not in the same class. Someone once told me "375 H&H One Planet One Cartridge"

Then theres the 9.3x74R....and if you really wanna get salty, the 375 Ruger (palm on face). I think most of us have been around long enough to read these articles and just smile, happy that the writer made another rent payment


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Ripp
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #344992 - 11/09/20 10:59 AM

Quote:

All these comments and no one has mentioned that 375 H&H is the minimum legal cartridge for Dangerous Game in RSA (and I think Zim).

I love my 35 Whelen but theres no way Id ever compare it to my 375 H&H. Both are great cartridges just not in the same class. Someone once told me "375 H&H One Planet One Cartridge"

Then theres the 9.3x74R....and if you really wanna get salty, the 375 Ruger (palm on face). I think most of us have been around long enough to read these articles and just smile, happy that the writer made another rent payment




I believe in the article itself it states that the .375H&H is a min caliber is some areas..

Also read somewhere that the .375 Ruger was a bit of a death blow to the 9.3x62 in the US..

Agree.. don't really care what a writer or someone wants to shoot or prefers..been around long enough I know what I like..but a John suggested, makes for interesting conversation..

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Edited by Ripp (11/09/20 11:02 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Rule303]
      #344993 - 11/09/20 11:03 AM

Quote:

Yep just another "pay the rent" article to us. However as younger people join the ranks information/knowledge needs to be passed on and this is one one of education those. Hopefully it will inspire a few to do their own research.




Exactly.. and very well stated.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Ripp]
      #345001 - 11/09/20 02:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

However these sorts of articles give us an opportunity to argue so are good value.




John
Your last point is one reason I posted this.. KNEW it would draw some crossfire.. keeps the site "lively"..




I think some of these magazine articles use a certain advertising formula.

You know the TV advertising where the person hosting the advert is really annoying. Or pronounces some word badly on purpose.

Something to remember the advert by.

In articles something to be annoyed by and argue about.

In articles, the trouble is newbies might take it all as correct and fact.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Ripp]
      #345004 - 11/09/20 02:24 PM

Quote:


John
Your last point is one reason I posted this.. KNEW it would draw some crossfire.. keeps the site "lively"..




Your posts are appreciated. Someone has to post stuff and start up new threads

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John aka NitroX

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Ripp
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: NitroX]
      #345011 - 11/09/20 11:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:


John
Your last point is one reason I posted this.. KNEW it would draw some crossfire.. keeps the site "lively"..




Your posts are appreciated. Someone has to post stuff and start up new threads




MY critical elemant right now is TIME.. NOT enough hours in the day..BUT, was around and in the office this week.. so, I take a few minutes through the day reading up on guns, hunting, etc..as it is drawing near here.. Pronghorn and pheasant opens in a month.. two weeks later its deer, elk, etc season..

My wife and I were out chasing some cattle from one pasture to the other on Sunday night with our horses.. a smaller black bear come out of the brush by her... she got quite concerned.. He took off running up the mtn by the time I rode over to her.. was a juvenile bear...

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szihn
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: Ripp]
      #345015 - 12/09/20 01:04 AM

We here in the western USA would need a lot more buffalo to have a valid way to compare the 2 cartridges. But out largest common game is the elk. Moose are nearly as rare for hunting opportunities as buffalo.
I absolutely love my 375. In fact I rate it as one of my 2 favorite cartridges I have ever used. So much in fact that I am on it's 2nd barrel due to shooting the rifling out of the throat of the first one. I have used it to kill a LOT of game.

The 9.3X62 started to get a following in the Rocky Mountains about 7 years ago and I can't say what caused it to grab the attentions of the hunters in Wyoming and Montana, but 10 years ago most American had not even heard of it. It's got a very good following now. I have re-barreled a bunch of 30-06s and 270 to 9.3X62, and made fully custom rifles in that caliber for hunters around here quite a few times also. I got to see the effects on elk about 10 times before I decided to make one for myself.

So far I have seen probably 15 elk killed with the 9.3X62 and also my own 9.3X74R. I load both of my rifles with the same bullets (286 grain) at effectively the same speeds. 2394 FPS average for the 9.3X74R and 2407 FPS for my 9.3X62.

On elk, there is NO difference at all in the effects of the 9.3s and my 375H&H that I can see.

But elk are running from around 475 pounds up to about 900 pounds. If I were to start killing several dozen buffalo of 1600 to 2200 pounds, or moose from 1200 to 1800 pounds, maybe my old love, the 375H&H, would show me some difference.
But on elk, deer, antelope and bear, there is NO difference at all.

I'll just have to take your Aussy's word for it when you tell me the 375 is superior, but shooting wild cattle and water buffalo, you'd would have a way to see a difference I. Here in the Rockys, a man would have to be VERY VERY VERY wealthy to be able to hunt enough moose and buffalo WITH BOTH CARTRIDGES to be able to have any valid opinion. To get such a background I would say someone would have to shoot about 15 moose and 15 buffalo WITH EACH CARTRIDGE with the same kind of bullets in each, before you could have enough personal history to make a judgement for each one.

I suspect that if an animal was large enough to "challenge" 36 cal or 37 cal 270, 286 300 or 320 grain bullets, the 375 may be more effective simply because weight for weight, the 375 is a bit faster.
But any honest evaluations would be forced to admit from over 100 years of use in Africa ans northern Europe, the 9.3X62 and 9.3X74R are both quite capable in the hands of men who can shoot.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: szihn]
      #345032 - 12/09/20 06:56 PM

Quote:


are both quite capable in the hands of men who can shoot.




Using that criteria a .264 will work fine. 95% of the time anyway, the other 5% you get killed.

A 6.5 mm has been used to shoot thousands of moose. I used a 7 mm. They have been used to shoot elk in the USA.

The .318 WR with 250 gr bullets will kill buffalo fine. Have done for again thousands of buffalo.

I'be shot 14 or so water buffalo with a 9.3x74R, none were full sized bulls though, cows and younger animals. ONE cape buff with a .375 H&H. Other bovines with a 9.3x74R. A whole bunch of other bovines with a .450.

So as you say, few people actually have enough experience these days to say from actual use. I must say the 9.3x74R in my limited opinion was not s preferable as my favourite, the .450. Obvious difference of course. Can't say much about use of the .375. One shot into a cape buffalo, it ran stopped after a while appeared to look better, shot it with a FMJ, it zipped right through. It ran and died.

In the future I want to try out my .404 and 10-bore on water buffalo. For fun.

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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: szihn]
      #345033 - 12/09/20 07:08 PM

Quote:


are both quite capable in the hands of men who can shoot.




Using that criteria a .264 will work fine. 95% of the time anyway, the other 5% you get killed.

A 6.5 mm has been used to shoot thousands of moose. I used a 7 mm. They have been used to shoot elk in the USA.

The .318 WR with 250 gr bullets will kill buffalo fine. Have done for again thousands of buffalo.

I'be shot 14 or so water buffalo with a 9.3x74R, none were full sized bulls though, cows and younger animals. A mixture of brain shots, or one to three body shots each.

ONE cape buff with a .375 H&H. Other bovines with a 9.3x74R.

A whole bunch of bovines with a .450. Water buffalo, banteng, scrub bulls. Plus elephant.

So as you say, few people actually have enough experience these days to say from actual use. I must say the 9.3x74R in my limited opinion was not s preferable as my favourite, the .450. Obvious difference of course. Can't say much about use of the .375. One shot into a cape buffalo, it ran stopped after a while appeared to look better, shot it with a FMJ, it zipped right through. It ran and died.

In the future I want to try out my .404 and 10-bore on water buffalo. For fun.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: 375 H&H vs 9.3x62-Cartridge-clash [Re: NitroX]
      #345035 - 12/09/20 07:23 PM

The bracket creeper's argument.

eg 9.3 mm = .375, fair enough, not 100% but marginally equal.

So lets examine bracket creep logic.

6.5 mm = 7 mm, fair enough, not really.

7 mm = .30

.30 = 8 mm

8 mm = .338

.338 = .358

.358 = 9.3 mm

9.3 mm = .375

So mathematics says a 6.5 mm = .375

And the above bullshit, sums up a lot of these close comparison arguments.

A real debate might be, is a 9.3x62 with 320 gr projectiles or even 286 gr projectiles more effective than a .375 NE or 9.5x57 with 270 gr projectiles. Because here there is real ballistic differences - ie probably lower velocity of the .375 NE and lower sectional density of the projectile. . Though still somewhat marginal difference.

I would however trust the 9.3 mm much more than the .375 NE for DG use. Not much of a difference for medium game, because again both exhibit greater than needed energy. .

Have fun.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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