Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: the last mysterys in gun history

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> 'Classic' Firearms Photos & Archive

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1650
Loc: QLd, Australia
Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #259025 - 14/01/15 03:55 PM

Quote:

Ash

I find another 11x59R cartridge that may be very much like the .445 Grasset Nitro



civilian SFM with a unknown non- magnetic jacketed bullet, same oal like 8x50R Lebel

a shorter brass bullet on a 11x59R with SFM civil headstamp

11x59R blackpowder lead bullet load, lead lost the paper patching in the storms of time



if you reduce rim thickness and diameter of the first round you have the thing. I measure a .439 bullet diameter on the case mouth what will help to reduce pressure in the .451-.454 gras brarrels.





But a .439 jacketed bullet down a .446-.451 barrel will shoot with horrid accuracy?
Do you suspect this to be the elusive .445 Nitro? I'm now certain it's like you said - 11mm Gras, smokeless load. Maybe they open the bolt to suit?
No idea on bullet weight/velocity.

Seriously debating on buying one and figuring it out and hunting with it.

--------------------
.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.450 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 6290
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: Ash]
      #259027 - 14/01/15 05:25 PM

No
I am still looking for a Gras case with the rim thickness and diameter of the 8x50R Lebel case. thats what I learned by the pic's here.
remember that no original cartridge is known in the cartridge collector community till now.
the cartridge must have the exact OAL of the Lebel too!have said I measured .439 on the Vickers cartridge above the case mouth but in my experience with such measurements the real bullet diameter in the case will be allways a lttle bit above.
imho, a 458 cal. 350 grains softpoint reduced to the maximum diameter the barrel and the chamber will accept and loaded up to 600 -650 m/sec must be safe. that brings the load close to the 10,75x68 maybe not a real elephant cartridge but enough for australian water buffalo.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1650
Loc: QLd, Australia
Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #259799 - 01/02/15 09:52 PM

http://municion.org/altres/11x59gras.htm

4th from the left, "1879-1883 jacketed ( enveloped copper as the EL0014) "

Need to look up EL0014, if thats the cartridge designation? Couldn't find anything on a quick search. I know it's not the 445, but still lends to the imagination easily.



--------------------
.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1650
Loc: QLd, Australia
Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE! [Re: Ash]
      #259855 - 02/02/15 06:01 PM

Thanks to a member on another forum for finding this. I posted a topic asking if anyone spoke french, and posted the page we had. He sent a link to the FULL ARTICLE!!!!!! This answers many of our questions, i believe! (Going from reading the rough translation)

EDIT: I accidentally left out 2 pages! It's correct now, image 3 goes beside image 2, and image 5 goes beside image 4 on the magazine pages. There. Thats how it should look


http://fr.1001mags.com/parution/gazette-des-armes/numero-163-mars-1987/page-12-13-texte-integral














Edited by Ash (02/02/15 07:50 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.450 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 6290
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE! [Re: Ash]
      #259858 - 02/02/15 07:24 PM

thanks Ash, have seen a pic of the first page before but it was in bad quality and I dont know where it came from. was going through the text now but dont find if the rim of the Gras case or the bolt head of the lebel was changed. hope someone with better french language skills will find this fact. like allways gun magazines are very careful with loading data not proofed offically. they talk about .445 -..446 lead bullets and than about .458 softpoints but was the softpoint pressed down to .445?
so far I was right the modification of the lebel into big game hunting rifle startet with 11 mm Gras barrel and the original gras chamber.

unfortunately they had also no original factory cartridge and the number three here is a Gevelot factory nitro loaded Gras



if I ever get a Gras barrel the modification of the turkish forestry carbine would be a nice project

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1650
Loc: QLd, Australia
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE! [Re: lancaster]
      #259859 - 02/02/15 07:32 PM

I read a rough translation, and it mentions swaging the .458 bullets down to correct size, and says the 400gr .458's are good for it. From what i gathered it seems the best accuracy had was 6" @ 100m using 500gr .458's swaged down.

I'm suspecting the Gevelot factory load was the .445 at the moment. They're speed's listed were very slow, around 450m/s (1470fps).

Do you know anyone who speaks French and has time to translate for us? I don't know anyone with that time or who speaks French. But hey, we managed to get the full article, and the whole magazine as a PDF can be bought for 1 euro.

Also, i think that rifle appears to have a rather nasty crack in the buttstock?

Turkish Forestry Carbine - Screw on the Gras barrel and leave it full stock?

I edited the previous post to fix where i accidentally left out 2 pages

--------------------
.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.450 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 6290
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE! [Re: Ash]
      #259861 - 02/02/15 07:54 PM

have send Larcher a mail about it

the Gevelot 11mm Gras Nitro load have the V0 of the original old blackpowder load no doubt for go with the original iron sights what is important.the older black powder breech loading rifles were not strong enough for more pressure/power.
anyway a .445 bullet at this speed is a killer on hoogs blackpowder hunter know it. I presume the .445 Grasset was loaded up to 600 -650 m/sec what would be necessary for african big game.

like the Orman forestry carbine because of the hidden teutonic look

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.450 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 6290
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE! [Re: lancaster]
      #259882 - 03/02/15 04:09 AM

so larcher take a look into this and the bolt head was changed for accepting the bigger rim of the Gras case. that makes sense so any kind of 11mm Gras ammo at hand was working in this rifle including old blackpowder ammo. I dont thought this before when seeing the pic of the bolt head because it was looking unchanged but we all make mistakes. far and away in the colonys its is a good thing to use any ammo you can get. they have shoot the rifle here only with nitro for black loads but I am sure there were Grasset made rounds with a higher velocity.
when the rifle was shoot for the article .458 bullets between 300 and 500 grains were pressed down to .445.

thanks larcher

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1650
Loc: QLd, Australia
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE! [Re: lancaster]
      #344566 - 24/08/20 10:23 PM

Lancaster - any further discoveries with this cartridge?

--------------------
.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.450 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 6290
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE! [Re: Ash]
      #344578 - 25/08/20 03:55 AM

sorry, nothing new was crossing my way since it was written here.
but don't worry, anything will be discovered one day.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1650
Loc: QLd, Australia
445 Grasset Nitro [Re: lancaster]
      #344589 - 25/08/20 09:39 AM

Some day, some day.

--------------------
.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Daryl_S
.600 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 21351
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: Ash]
      #344593 - 25/08/20 01:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ash

I find another 11x59R cartridge that may be very much like the .445 Grasset Nitro



civilian SFM with a unknown non- magnetic jacketed bullet, same oal like 8x50R Lebel

a shorter brass bullet on a 11x59R with SFM civil headstamp

11x59R blackpowder lead bullet load, lead lost the paper patching in the storms of time



if you reduce rim thickness and diameter of the first round you have the thing. I measure a .439 bullet diameter on the case mouth what will help to reduce pressure in the .451-.454 gras brarrels.





But a .439 jacketed bullet down a .446-.451 barrel will shoot with horrid accuracy?
Do you suspect this to be the elusive .445 Nitro? I'm now certain it's like you said - 11mm Gras, smokeless load. Maybe they open the bolt to suit?
No idea on bullet weight/velocity.

Seriously debating on buying one and figuring it out and hunting with it.




That ctg. looks so much like the .43 Mauser, for the model 1871 Mauser. The first ones, including the 1871/76 had groove diameters of up to .457". The bullet was .446" and the ctg. case/chamber would not allow a bullet over .446" to be seated in it.
The original 77gr. Black Powder load would slug up the .439" soft lead bullet to give military accuracy of the day. However, when CIL and other makers started producing smokeless loads, still with the .446" bullet, accuracy was VERY disappointing - in the 1871's through 1871/76's.
The model 1884 Mauser, however(same basic action), had barrels with .466" groove diameters & those shot the new smokeless ammo fairly well.
So- if undersied bullets are used, they must be soft lea and be driven by black powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.450 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 6290
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: Daryl_S]
      #344610 - 26/08/20 04:59 AM

just read a book about the remington agent samuel norris in europe





the mauser brothers working for him since 1868 in liege, making ad hoc alteration on guns like the rolling block while the rifle was testet in countrys like denmark , sweden, austria, spain to please special wishes of the breech loader commisions.
another projekt was to change the french chassepot needle fire rifle in a self cocking action with metallic cartride.
this leads to the later mauser 71 in 1870 what was nothing more than a chassepot with a se3lf cocking action and metallic cartridge. because bavaria had adopted the M 69 werder lighting rifle and this gun works excellent in the franco -german war of 1870/71 the case of the 11,5x50R werder was extended to the 11,15x60R M 71 which giv the superiour ballistic of the Chassepot needle fire cartridge - 25 gramm bullet at 420 m/sec ( the werder cartridge had only a 22 gramm bullet).

when the french change the chassepot into the gras 74 after 1874 they did the same with some minor changings and another but similar cartridge of course, again firing a 25 gramm bullet at 420 m/sec.


chassepot




chassepot cartridge



werder rifle




werder cartridge



mauser 71




11,15x60R




gras m 74



11x59R gras



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 12 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 59739

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved