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Rothhammer1
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Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles
      #343913 - 01/08/20 02:23 AM

Stendebach 1936: Stendebach



Text from Rock Island Auctions:

This is a very rare and quite possibly "one of a kind" German/Austrian Stendeback Model 1936 semi-automatic prototype or trials rifle. The top of the receiver ring is marked "STENDEBACK/MOD. 1936". It has a rust blued type metal finish and a two-piece walnut stock. This unique rifle is a cross between the semi-automatic Pedersen rifle and the Model 1892 Blake bolt action rifle. This unique rifle was accompanied by a small handwritten note from the consignor that states he purchased this rifle in a junk store in Victoria, Texas, and that he was able to locate the previous owner, who related that he liberated this rifle in Augsburg, Germany at the end of the war. The Pedersen rifle used a delayed blow back "toggle action" design similar to the toggle action on the Luger pistol. The Pedersen design was evaluated by the U.S. Ordnance Board in the 1920s, and then by both the British and Japanese Military, eventually being rejected by all countries. The Blake rifle was designed in 1892 that used a standard bolt action mechanism with a rotary type magazine. It was developed when the U.S. Government was testing a new rifle to convert from the trapdoor to a modern bolt action rifle. The Blake design used an internal "rotary" type magazine that used a spool to hold the cartridges which rotated as each round was fired. That design also did not gain any favor at the time as the U.S. Ordnance Board adopted the Krag rifle with a side loading internal box magazine. Eventually an internal rotary magazine type design was used on the Johnson 1941 rifles and later on numerous bolt action and semi-automatic sporting rifles. In the mid to late 1930s Germany was still using the standard bolt action rifles; however, two companies, Walther and Mauser, were in a design battle to develop a semi-automatic infantry rifle for the German Army. So it appears that the Stendeback company may have decided to enter that same competition using this rifle design of a combined Pedersen semi-automatic toggle-action with the Blake rotary magazine design to produce this prototype rifle. The German Armaments Board eventually settled on the G41/G43 designs, which obviously ended this rifle and associated companies chances of any contracts. The receiver on this rifle is a massive and very complicated design which is manufactured from a one-piece steel casting that included the rotary magazine housing all in one piece. The interesting thing is that the internal rotary magazine spool, the hinged magazine cover, complete trigger guard, both barrel bands, lower sling swivel and buttplate are all manufactured from aluminum. This use of aluminum material, obviously lends itself to prototype/trials rifle production theory, as standard production parts would have been made from steel, while aluminum was used to facilitate a rapid manufacturing process. The action has a hinged toggle mechanism with a separate hinged bolt head assembly which uses internal springs to close the breechblock. It has a spring loaded loading gate on the right side (similar to the Krag and Johnson rifles) with a small spring loaded ratchet system on the left side that rotates the internal spool, allowing it to be loaded. You can also load and unload the spool by simply dropping the hinged magazine cover (on the underside of the action) to expose the rotary spool inside. It is fitted with a German GEW style 28 inch barrel with a standard inverted "v" front sight with a folding pop up rear sight that is inset into the rear upper tang of the receiver similar to what was used by the Mauser factory on some of their sporting rifles. It has a two-piece walnut stock with finger grooves on the side of the forend with a pre-war style round knob pistol grip stock. The top of the receiver ring, the top of the bolt head/breechblock and complete toggle assembly have been stippled, which was intended to provide a non-glare type of finish to prevent a shine when sighting the rifle. It is a very interesting, complicated rifle design that was obviously very short lived.




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Rothhammer1
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343916 - 01/08/20 02:54 AM

Blake Rifle: Blake Video

Blake



This one's not truly a rotary magazine. It has a cylindrical cartridge carrier that is part of a magazine system; a rotary en bloc of sorts.





Text from Tumblr:

Blake Rifle

The Blake Rifle was one of a number of designs submitted to the US Army’s 1892 rifle trails which sought a replacement for the venerable Springfield M1873 ‘trapdoor’. Designed by John H. Blake the rifle was one of only a handful of American-made rifles offered for the trials. Chambered in a rimless .30 calibre cartridge called .30 Blake which was a rimless development of the .30-40 Krag round. The rifle fed from a 7-round rotary magazine. The rifle was patented by Blake in May 1893, but the patent was not granted until July 1898.

The rifle’s action cocked on opening, much like a Mauser action, and was locked by four lugs at the front of the bolt which seated into the receiver and was one of a number of bolt-action rifles submitted to the trial. Blake’s rifle was one of the more promising private designs submitted with many others being single shot trapdoor designs with little improvement over the M1873. The Blake rifle faced competition from a number of other designs including the tube-magazine fed Chaffee-Reece which had been rejected during trials in the 1880s and several lever-action Savage rifles and the Danish Krag-Jorgensen which fed from a side loading rotary magazine. By 1892, the US Army was seeking a bolt-action repeating rifle which could be single-loaded while a magazine could be held in reserve. As such the Savage and many other designs were discounted immediately.

Compared to some its competitors the well balanced Blake rifle was promising. However, its most interesting feature was its downfall. The 7-round rotary magazine contained an aluminium 'spool’ which was inserted into the magazine through a hinged door in the bottom of the receiver (see image #6). It was intended that troops would carry a number of pre-loaded spools much as chargers and clips were later carried.
On the left-hand side of the receiver the rifle has a magazine cut-off lever which was marked “SINGLE” to “RAPID”. When 'Rapid’ was selected the cycling of the bolt after firing rotated the spool and brought the next round into the chamber. When 'Single’ was selected the lever moved the magazine spool to a position between two cartridges and disconnected the spool rotating pawl. Sadly the rifle board decided that the rifle was unfit for service because of its unusual feed mechanism. Instead the less complicated rotary magazine of the Danish Krag-Jorgensen was selected and adopted as the M1892.

Several years later in 1894, Blake submitted his rifle design to US Navy’s rifle trials however, his rifle lost out to James Paris Lee’s box magazine design which became the M1895 Lee Navy.
While the Blake Rifle was not adopted by the US Army it was produced commercially in limited numbers. It was offered in a number of calibres including 8mm Mauser and 6mm Lee. Production ended in 1909, with well under 1,000 being made.

Sources:

The Rifle Story, J. Walter, (2006)

The Blake Infantry Rifle (source)






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Rothhammer1
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343919 - 01/08/20 09:19 AM

Savage M1895 / Model 99:

Savage 99

Savage





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Daryl_S
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343927 - 01/08/20 02:59 PM

Similar principles are used by Ruger and Browning in their semi-auto and bolt actioned rifles.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Daryl_S]
      #343934 - 01/08/20 08:50 PM


Johnson Rifle, 1941





Forgotten Firearms video: Johnson 1941

NRA article: NRA Johnson





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93x64mm
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343948 - 02/08/20 09:13 AM

I've never heard of the Savage 99 having feed issues - it must of had a 'foolproof' spool magazine so to speak compared to the Mannlicher etc?
I'm no mechanical guru, but looks to me the cartridges were completely supported completely within the spool.
I know from this forum that if not using the 'correct' nose shape this would cause a jam in a Mannlicher; so was this a 'design' flaw in that system by not having full support - & how easy was it to rectify if different projectile were to be used?


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: 93x64mm]
      #343953 - 02/08/20 04:57 PM

Quote:

I've never heard of the Savage 99 having feed issues - it must of had a 'foolproof' spool magazine so to speak compared to the Mannlicher etc?
I'm no mechanical guru, but looks to me the cartridges were completely supported completely within the spool.
I know from this forum that if not using the 'correct' nose shape this would cause a jam in a Mannlicher; so was this a 'design' flaw in that system by not having full support - & how easy was it to rectify if different projectile were to be used?







Yes, it is true that the Schoenauer rotary magazines used in the Mannlicher Schoenauer models prior to M1924 are rather particular regarding cartridge profile and overall length. The spool is shaped to cradle cartridges designed specifically for it, but is open around its circumference. The magazine body and surrounding well are machined to provide additional guidance and support to the cartridges as they are fed by the spool. If cartridges of shorter or narrower profile at the 'nose' area are used they may become misaligned and jam into areas of the magazine body.


Note how nose of cartridge aligns with machined guide toward front of magazine body




Considering, however, that they were prototyped (M1900) and initially manufactured ('Greek' Y1903) as military arms I'm not so sure I'd count that as a flaw. Supply lines provided proper fitting ammunition and with such the Schoenauer magazine performs flawlessly every time.


Y 1903/14 Carbine

As long as supplies of proper fitting 6.5X54 MS were available, Y1903 Mannlicher Schoenauers did not jam, could be fed singly or charged with 'strippers' of five rounds, and were indeed highly regarded for their reliability. Other military rifles also had particular feeding habits. The highly successful Gewehr 88 'Commission Rifle', for example, was fed cartridges in en bloc 'clips' without which the rifles could not feed at all.

For the sportsman, again it can be said that as the 6.5X54, 9X56, 8X56, and 9.5X57 were Mannlicher Schoenauer proprietary cartridges that the cartridges themselves were part of the 'Mannlicher System' and fed flawlessly through their corresponding Schoenauer magazines. I doubt that many manufacturers of the early 20th century gave much consideration to what issues reloaders may have when proprietary cartridges go obsolete.



The problem arose with the M1924 and subsequent models as they used cartridges that were not proprietary to the Mannlicher Schoenauer. The issue was addressed. A retaining ring was added to encircle the spool of the M1924, and modified for later models, which held cartridges in place at or near the shoulder. This addition negated feed issues when cartridges of differing profiles are used.


Schoenauer magazines from; M1903, M1910, M1924, 'M1925' (High Velocity), M1952
Photo swiped from post of member Kuduae


7X57

For those with M1900, M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910 models who choose to use different projectiles, some have added carefully shaped shims carved of wood or plastic to the areas of the magazine well which need to be built up to fill voids left by shorter or narrower bullets. Not an easy fitment, and then your MS is cartridge specific to the 'new' profile.

As long as one uses cartridges built to original specifications, however, an original Mannlicher Schoenauer magazine simply will not jam.

Animation MS

I've never operated a Savage 99. My only Savage is (most of) a Savage built 1928A1 Thompson Submachine Gun. I'm not Class 3, so it's one of the parts kit Tommys that were imported to the U.S. in the 1990s - 2000s. The original upper receiver did not come with it, unissued lower and barrel are assembled to a dummy (inert) receiver.





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93x64mm
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343965 - 03/08/20 06:20 AM

Thanks for the info Rothhammer!
I guess from that its not a 'design flaw', but a clever marketing strategy to only have your ammunition in your rifle - I suppose handloading would have been out of the question back then.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: 93x64mm]
      #343971 - 03/08/20 10:11 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the info Rothhammer!
I guess from that its not a 'design flaw', but a clever marketing strategy to only have your ammunition in your rifle - I suppose handloading would have been out of the question back then.




Accept no imitations! Buy only the bona-fide authorized original... .



The stuff was rather pricey, as well. The same 1939 catalog that listed these DWM 'imported rimless cartridges for Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles' at $5.00 to $6.50 USD per box of 20 (on stripper clips) also offered .30-'06 from Remington, Winchester, Western, or Peters in various bullet weights and profiles at $1.99 per box. Run those prices through this; Inflation Calculator for today's equivalent.

Having just done so and seeing that buyers then paid over $6.00 per round in today's money for 9.5X57 makes me feel a bit better about the cost of my reloads. Fresh Norma for the M1910, however, (when available) can run well in excess of that sum.

I have no idea what, if any, licensing fee Steyr may (or may not) have collected on MS proprietary cartridges. The ones listed above were DWM, a few other manufacturers also made them as Norma still does on occasion. Prvi Partisan offers 6.5X54 (feeds the M1900, M1903, Y1903 and variants) that can be found at reasonable prices: 6.5X54


Handloading and reloading were not unknown in the pre WW2 days, just perhaps not as popular as it is today.

From the 1939 Stoeger:





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Rothhammer1
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343976 - 03/08/20 11:37 AM



Schulhof Rotary Magazine Rifle: Schulhof Video



This is an exceptionally rare and like new model 1888 Schulhof bolt action "Test" rifle. This specific rifle was developed circa 1887 by Joseph Schulhof, a prolific Austrian firearms designer. This rifle was one of a handful that were submitted to the U.S. Ordnance Board at Springfield Armory for field testing in December 1888 when the U.S. Government was looking for a new modern bolt action rifle as a replacement for the aging and out dated M1884 trapdoor rifle. This rifle has a very unique feature for this time: a rotary magazine that has features similar to the Norwegian Krag and the Johnson M1941 rifles. To load the magazine there is a small magazine cover/door on the right side that opens when you depress a small lever; when you open the cover that action engages the spring loaded magazine cartridge feeder inside the magazine box. This allows the shooter to just drop the cartridges into the magazine and when you close the cover it releases the cartridge feeder and pushes the cartridges into position on the underside of the action. The left side of the rifle also has a small lever which is a magazine cutoff. To engage this you just push or rotate the lever upwards. The bolt itself is also similar to the Krag in that it has a single lug on the right side with an internal firing pin and a large cocking knob on the end. It has a two-piece walnut stock with a full length Mannlicher style finger groove forend end. It has a standard inverted "v" front sight and a military style tangent rear sight that is marked on the side of the base "2-20" (200-2000 meters). The left side of the receiver is marked in heavy engraving: "SCHULOF'S PATENT" with the small circular factory mark of "S. J. &D" (we assume this is for "Joseph Schulhof and D"). The barrel has an octagonal breeching section that is stamped with the Belgium "Perron/ELG" for the proof house at Liege, Belgium. The left breech end of the barrel, the front edge of the receiver and the bolt lug all have the Austrian "Crown/V" proof mark that was implemented in 1891 for all Austrian firearms. Overall, the rifle performed in a satisfactory manner undergoing some very harsh and extreme testing including: dust, rust, accuracy, rapid firing, and endurance tests. Although it passed the majority of the tests, it failed in one when a "Hebler Proof" cartridge failed (exploded) in the chamber area and in turn ignited two cartridges in the magazine; they subsequently exploded and severely damaged the rotary magazine and bent the bolt. Consequently the Ordnance Board deemed the rifle was weak in that area and unsatisfactory for a military rifle. The rifle was never produced on a commercial basis. However, in looking at it, this describer would assume it would have been very popular on the world market as it is a well made rifle with a very smooth action. The front and rear sections of the bolt, the barrel bands, trigger guard, rotary magazine box, cartridge pusher and magazine door are all correctly numbered "43".

Schulhof also had a rotary magazine pistol: Schulhof Pistol

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343977 - 03/08/20 11:53 AM

Pedersen Rotary Rifle (Japan): Pedersen Video



Pedersen article: Article

Another: Pedersen

Another rare and exotic Japanese weapon. The Japanese version of the semi automatic “Pedersen Rifle”. It featured a 10 round rotary magazine similar to M1941 Johnson rifle . Apparently some (incomplete?) ones were found in an arsenal near Tokyo and some in the Philippines in 1945, even though the “Pedersen Project” had allegedly been cancelled by the IJA in 1936. I think it has a very cool retro-futuristic look, even though such an overly complicated design made no sense during WW2. Something cheap & simple to produce would have been better suited.



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Rothhammer1
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Daryl_S]
      #343978 - 03/08/20 12:08 PM

Quote:

Similar principles are used by Ruger and Browning in their semi-auto and bolt actioned rifles.




Indeed.

Ruger: Ruger mags

Browning: X Bolt - T Bolt

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Louis
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343979 - 03/08/20 03:36 PM

Thank you for collating and sharing this weather of information, Rothhammer.
Louis

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"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Louis]
      #343988 - 03/08/20 10:56 PM

Quote:

Thank you for collating and sharing this weather of information, Rothhammer.
Louis




My pleasure:



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Louis
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Re: Non Mannlicher rotary magazine rifles [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343993 - 04/08/20 01:26 AM

"wealth of info", not "weather of info" in my above post!
Louis

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"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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