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themauserkid
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Reged: 21/06/15
Posts: 42
Loc: Texas
Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #343769 - 29/07/20 03:02 AM

Hey fellas, thereís a slight misunderstanding going on here. The above .270 rifle is not an Oberndorf proper, thatís a prewar JP Sauer small ring with the typical trigger guard as seen on these. Itís also not a shotgun style per se, simply an enlarged forging of the typical Oberndorf guard, there is no tang extending past the rear action screw or anything on these. Also note the simple straight line border engraved and matted top of receiver, this is standard on a Sauer. Sauerís styling on Mauser action rifles was basically unchanged on their ďnormalĒ production models from at least 1897 until the war. The earliest Iíve seen was a three digit serial on a transitional 1897 action, itís pre 1898 of course but has many of the features already. I believe I actually saw that rifle on this forum somewhere.

I largely collect Sauer so if anyone would like pictures of this trigger guard or any other details let me know as I have some on hand. This trigger guard was pretty much standard at Sauer until roughly the early 1930ís it appears, after which the internal bow release lever and converted ďstandardĒ Mauser 98 pattern trigger guards show up on them. This particular pattern I do not have yet but am on the hunt for! The one I have not seen and assume will not, is the typical Oberndorf pattern of guard as used on most of their models. Neat project by the way!


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Rothhammer1
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #343772 - 29/07/20 03:51 AM

Quote:


Thanks for the links Rothhammer. Interestingly that first one with the full slab sides also has a shotgun trigger bow... although itís not a very original looking rifle so maybe that bits changed. I do like the stock though. In fact I think I like slab sides, just trying to decide if I like them enough to deviate from my initial desire of creating as close to an original as I realistically can in terms of style - my action is marked 1937




I was going a whole different way with this, but it appears that the 'full slab sides' are almost exclusively (?) seen on 'Haenel Mannlichers' such as their sporting version of Gewehr 88 (which they were producing under contract) and its descendants, the Haenel Modell 1900 and 1909. Link: Haenel
Searches of 'Haenel Mauser' end up with Gewehr 88 models in Mauser chamberings and I find very few 'slab sided' mousies.



Even so, it's entirely plausible to think that someone of that time (1937) may have crafted, or ordered to be built by a guild shop, a'custom' Mauser that varied considerably from the Mauser factory styles. Perhaps someone could have harbored a soft spot in their heart for a 'Mannlicher Haenel' they had previously owned and now (1937) wanted to have a stalking rifle of that style yet preferred the Mauser 98 action or available chamberings? Not 'Mauser original', but 'period aftermarket correct'?

Here is a page from the ol' '39 Stoeger offering stutzen stocks to spiff up WW1 surplus military rifles for do it yourselfers in the U.S., or one could send the rifle to Stoeger and have them do the conversion:



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themauserkid
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Reged: 21/06/15
Posts: 42
Loc: Texas
Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343774 - 29/07/20 05:02 AM

They are standard at Sauer too, all of mine have it and every example Iíve seen has as well. Itís very popular and common in Suhl, many makers there had it as their standard stock pattern, Simson, Kettner etc. The example above is without a doubt Sauer. Haenel didnít make many Mausers but Iíve seen 2 or 3 examples and they too have the typical stock pattern of the time.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=445617


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Huvius
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343781 - 29/07/20 07:42 AM

Quote:

...it's entirely plausible to think that someone of that time (1937) may have crafted, or ordered to be built by a guild shop, a'custom' Mauser that varied considerably from the Mauser factory styles.




Absolutely!
Even Westley Richards offered Mauser '98s with slab sided stocking.
Very much a German, or even broader European style but even the English weren't averse to satisfying a customer request.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Huvius]
      #343809 - 29/07/20 07:53 PM

Sometimes I really like the internet... :


Westley Richards Mauser, properly tarted up for Indian royalty: 425 WR Mauser




From Sauer: Sauer Mauser



From Kettner: Kettner Mauser



From Eckoldt: Eckoldt Mauser


Note the turned down 'butterknife' bolt handle and Prince of Wales grip.



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Rothhammer1
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: themauserkid]
      #343811 - 29/07/20 08:45 PM

Quote:

Hey fellas, thereís a slight misunderstanding going on here. The above .270 rifle is not an Oberndorf proper, thatís a prewar JP Sauer small ring with the typical trigger guard as seen on these.




Apologies if that was me.

I'm really not at all well versed on Mauser variants.



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themauserkid
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Reged: 21/06/15
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343816 - 29/07/20 11:23 PM

No problem at all sir, thereís always something to learn, thatís what makes these old guns so interesting. I find myself quite lost on topics outside of Mauser very quickly!

Now that Kettner you dug up.. I really like that! Iím a sucker for a Mauser StŁtzen, I have a Sauer very similar to it.

Iím really curious to see what direction the OP decides to go, it would be very hard for me to nail one down, I have at least a dozen Mausers ideas Iíd have to sort though!


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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343878 - 31/07/20 07:34 AM

Quote:

Itís also not a shotgun style per se, simply an enlarged forging of the typical Oberndorf guard, there is no tang extending past the rear action screw or anything on these...

I largely collect Sauer so if anyone would like pictures of this trigger guard or any other details let me know as I have some on hand. This trigger guard was pretty much standard at Sauer until roughly the early 1930ís it appears, after which the internal bow release lever and converted ďstandardĒ Mauser 98 pattern trigger guards show up on them. This particular pattern I do not have yet but am on the hunt for! The one I have not seen and assume will not, is the typical Oberndorf pattern of guard as used on most of their models. Neat project by the way!


thanks for the info - Iím glad you corrected me. Although a i was writing it I had a feeling I wasnít right in saying itís a shotgun guard, what I should have said was definitely not regular oberndorf one. Very nice all the same. I do plan on grafting a military bow on and co contouring it like a DST oberndord bow though - you wouldnít have any dimensions to help me would you?

Quote:


it's entirely plausible to think that someone of that time (1937) may have crafted, or ordered to be built by a guild shop, a'custom' Mauser that varied considerably from the Mauser factory styles. Perhaps someone could have harbored a soft spot in their heart for a 'Mannlicher Haenel' they had previously owned and now (1937) wanted to have a stalking rifle of that style yet preferred the Mauser 98 action or available chamberings? Not 'Mauser original', but 'period aftermarket correct'?



I like your thinking! Yes itís a very good point - and not entirely unrealistic too. My main reason for wanting to build a copy is that I love the look of them, Iím never going to be trying to pass it off as an original so might as well put what I like on it anyway. Although I making it a Type B original As I can gives me bit of a tickle too...

A final bit of info Iím chasing for the barrel though - muzzle diameter. Spud303ís MD is 0.59Ē, but itís a 24Ē. Continuing that taper with a 28Ē barrel gives a MD of 0.55Ē, a while mm less and something thatís more like a featherweight diameter. Should I adjust the taper so itís 0.59Ē at the 28Ē muzzle? What would a 28Ē oberndorf have had?

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: themauserkid]
      #343879 - 31/07/20 08:00 AM

Quote:



Iím really curious to see what direction the OP decides to go, it would be very hard for me to nail one down, I have at least a dozen Mausers ideas Iíd have to sort though!


To be honest I am having problems deciding on quite a few details that could go either way. It took me a while to work exactly what I liked about classic sporters. I thought I had it fully nailed on a 100% Type B, then Cameron Hatcher made me aware of Plezier Mausers and that threw me a bit and gave me the side panel bug... Iíll try and do a bit of a progress report early next week I think

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343880 - 31/07/20 08:04 AM

Quote:

Sometimes I really like the internet... :

Westley Richards Mauser, properly tarted up for Indian royalty:
From Sauer:

From Kettner:

From Eckoldt:
Note the turned down 'butterknife' bolt handle and Prince of Wales grip.




Those last three are beautiful, and shows the classic panels I like.

Iím sure some people like them, but these westley Richards arenít so much to my taste - way Over stated And the lines just donít work IMO

Edited by Wedgetail (31/07/20 08:36 AM)


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Rothhammer1
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #343891 - 31/07/20 01:30 PM

Quote:


Iím sure some people like them, but these westley Richards arenít so much to my taste - way Over stated And the lines just donít work IMO




That particular WR is very heavily embellished, of course, and has the extended magazine for the '.425 Bore' cartridge. I included it as an example of WR with 'slab sided' stock.

Some of their other offerings are quite lovely. They did put out some handsome adverts:





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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #343984 - 03/08/20 06:46 PM

Sure - they certainly did, and I know you were only using it as an example of other side panels! It just struck a chord with with me not liking overstated gun art (or any art for that matter)...

Ok bit of a progress report. Iíve now got a couple of receivers to choose from, one gas less pitting than the other but still not 100%. I got it first, found the LH race was bent in a little causing the bolt to bind. I exchanged it for a straight one (pictured) but it has more pitting. I decided I didnít like the pitting so the seller sent the other one back. A couple of minutes with the press and the race is now perfect and functions a1.







I was originally planning on using the vz24 bolt I had but decided I liked the low scope handle with checkered bottom and thought it would be a shame to break up a good action anyway. So I got another unmatched bolt from Harryís Mausers. I told him I was building a custom and he sent me a virgin bolt - about the chrispest least molested bolt Iíve seen out side of a brand new rifle! Not sure whether to fit a Talley bolt handle or make one from bar stock. Iíve heard mixed reviews about Talley handles authenticity of shape? If I find myself having heaps of time Iíll make it but will need to hassle someone for handle dimensions







I lucked out on a new DST inletted into a bottom metal with lever floor plate release for cheap. Iíll need to hinge the floor plate and make the kicker - Iíve got a spare trigger and tracing of a kicker. Iíll have to graft a military trigger bow on and recontour. Unless someone has a solid bowíd DSTíd bottom metal they want to swap with a shotgun style one?





Spud303 is very kindly sending me an original tangent sight. Iíve discovered Argentines have the same sight sleeve ID (~0.76Ē) so am hoping to form one into a base to suit (has this been done before? Any other ideas - Spanish Mauser maybe?). Pics when it arrives...

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You can never have too much red wine, too many books or too much ammunition


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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344033 - 04/08/20 07:17 PM

So Iím having dark thoughts... what are peopleís views on scrubbing? Iím considering scrubbing the more pitted receiver. There are three reasons Iím thinking about.

1- the pitting, itís not very deep, and mostly below the wood line but is there none the less. Iíd prefer it if it were clean.
2- the nazi proofs. I donít like nazis, and their presence (all four of them) makes me marginally uncomfortable. I thought I was ok with it but Iím still on the fence.
3- Iíve always like the idea of an action made for sporting use rather than a recycled military one. Hence the desire to copy a Type B. Although thatís exactly whatís happening here, I can at least pretend to myself this isnít the case... exactly like what BRNO did with their Bo98 sporters, and Voere. I also have no ties to anyone or anything Portuguese.

Iím not worried about strength, nothings that deep. I feel guilty removing the nice crest, but in reality itís a pitted bare receiver - not exactly collector value. Or I just use the other (nicer) one... thoughts?

--------------------
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93x64mm
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344039 - 04/08/20 10:17 PM

Wedgie,
I've heard of micro-welding to repair pits etc - not sure who does it here, but it may be an option for you!
As to the crest, perhaps getting it engraved to reinstate back to original?


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2788
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: 93x64mm]
      #344047 - 05/08/20 09:15 AM

Wedgie:
I had a stunning Orion .500 Jeffery in my gunsafe for a short while, made on a Portuguese Mauser by Rassie Erasmus in South Africa in the '70s I believe. It was notable for the distinctive Blenheim sights, and the fact that the maker had the good sense to leave the perfectly-struck Portuguese crest and date intact, along with the marvelous row of large waffen-ampts down the left-hand side.
So often the history of the original action is ground away; certainly the case on most all vintage British sporters.
Also my .416 Taylor was built by Vic Pedersen in the late '80s on a totally cleaned-up Brno VZ-24 action, radius-ground receiver ring and left side of action filed clean of all maker's marks. It looks pretty darn good too!

Your project, your choice!

...although I personally can't equate any evils perpetrated by a bygone government with the historical hardware they left behind. We can't change history, nor can we deny it.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Marrakai]
      #344056 - 05/08/20 02:55 PM

Quote:


...although I personally can't equate any evils perpetrated by a bygone government with the historical hardware they left behind. We can't change history, nor can we deny it.




I agree on an intellectual level and would not be one to remove, enhance, or alter any original markings on an historic artifact.

I have, however, passed on a half decent Luger at a half decent price because of the Nazi Eagle proofs. To some they add value, but not to me.

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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #344071 - 06/08/20 08:45 PM

Good points Marrakai, and I a still a bit on the fence. I donít think Iíll worry about filling the pits - I can always use the cleaner receiver where the pits are minimal, below the wood line and wood stone off relatively easily...
Quote:


I have, however, passed on a half decent Luger at a half decent price because of the Nazi Eagle proofs. To some they add value, but not to me.


yes thatís it exactly - thatís how I feel. Itís more a subconscious thing that I canít rationalise. I think I might try scrubbing the more pitted one up, see how it goes then if I donít like it/itís not working out Iíll use the better one...

Iím the meantime, I received this yesterday. I now have a piece of genuine Type B to add to the build. Thank you very much spud303!







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themauserkid
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Reged: 21/06/15
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
      #344074 - 07/08/20 12:05 AM

I missed your question on trigger guard bow dimensions. I donít have anymore Oberndorf rifles proper, mostly rifles out of ThŁringia so most are modified somehow from the original Oberndorf profile. I can dimension the one in this thread which is probably the closest: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=340523&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
It has been narrowed at the top of the bow however so maybe only some dimensions would be truly helpful.


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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: themauserkid]
      #344119 - 08/08/20 07:08 AM

Hmm my reply to you mauserkid that I put up yesterday doesnít seem to have logged... anyway, I was trying to say thanks a lot that would be excellent! That trigger guard is exactly the shape Iím after. Iíve been unsure if I need to extend it to fit the DSTs

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