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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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HiWall
.275 member


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 85
Loc: Brisbane, Qld
H&H vs Wby
      #34389 - 06/07/05 06:48 PM

The CZ 550 Classic (American) Magnum is now available here in Australia and I have decided to get one in .375 H&H as a companion for the Safari Magnum in .458 Lott which I have just bought from one of our members.

While it is in the 'smith getting the normal things done I am thinking of having it rechambered to .375 Wby Magnum.

Is there any real advantage in having this conversion done?

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bonanza
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: HiWall]
      #34392 - 06/07/05 11:16 PM

You can shoot 350 woodleighs out of the 375 Weatherby at 300 gr. velocity.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: bonanza]
      #34395 - 07/07/05 12:40 AM

The only advantage I see for the Wby conversion is for someone expecting to use the rifle for long range (300 yards plus) shooting. Then the added velocity helps with a flatter trajectory. But at normal ranges, there is no advantage. In fact, you could make an argument that the added velocity is a disadvantage, since more velocity (beyond a reasonable starting point such as 2400 fps) leads to more rapid expansion of a bullet which then in turn decreases penetration.

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Mike_McGuire
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Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 348
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: HiWall]
      #34398 - 07/07/05 01:07 AM

If you can get hold of Reloader 15 and are using bullets of 270 grains or less then the velocity advantage is quite small...down to and including virtually no gain.

300 grain bullets and especially long spitzers is where the 375 Wby (or Acklet Imp) will show a velocity advantage thant can be 200 f/s and more. Much greater than the increase in case capacity would normally indicate.

The problem with the 375 H&H and especially with 300 grain bullets and doubly so for 300 grain spitzers is that the 2208/4064 burn rate is too fast and the 2209/4350 is too slow. However, the 2209/4350/Re19 etc are close to spot on powders for the 375 Improveds.

But again, if you can get hold of Re 15 and are using lighter bullets the game changes. With bullets up to 250 grains the 4350 burn rate is a bit to slow for the 375 Improveds and the Re15 and 2208/4064 is too fast.

But overall, if you like to play about with loads etc the 375 Wby is the better deal. Also, if you are happy with standard H&H ballistics the 375 Wby will do those ballistics at lower pressure and with more powders.

From a personal point of view I would leave it as 375 H&H as I think Wby calibres should be in Wby rifles or if not Wby rifles then HS Precision, Rem 700 etc. For me, a Mauser type rifle like the CZ chambered in a Wby calibre would cause me to break out in hives.

Mike

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: HiWall]
      #34422 - 07/07/05 02:11 PM

Personally for dangerous game cartridges I prefer the case to have sloping walls and not be straight sided. To aid easy extraction.

But a conversion nevertheless to the .375 Wby (not that aweful .378) sounds a reasonable idea.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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rgp
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Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: NitroX]
      #34432 - 07/07/05 05:25 PM

Hi Wall,

If my rifle I'd just leave it as a .375 H&H. I prefer reasonably low pressure, moderate velocity, and a nicely tapered case.

You could ask mikeH416rigby on this forum for his opinion, he has a rifle in .375 Ackley Improved, which is probably pretty much the same as a .375 Weatherby. He has used his .375 Ackley in Namibia for a variety of game and can give you details on performance.

Richard.

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ovis
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Reged: 26/01/03
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Loc: Homer, Alaska
Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: HiWall]
      #34445 - 08/07/05 03:05 AM

HiWall,

I would choose to do the .375Wea. if you reload. You can shoot H&H loads at lower pressures, crank it up if you like, & shoot .375H&H ammo in it in a pinch if your ammo is lost. Very vesatile caliber the .375Wea.........favorite round of legendary Alaska brown bear guide Hal Waugh and his rifle "Big Nan.".

Joe

--------------------
"Where there's a hobble, there's hope."

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HiWall
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Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 85
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: ovis]
      #34486 - 08/07/05 11:50 PM

Lots of food for thought here thanks guys - my intention was to use the heavy bullets, probably Woodleigh Protected Point spitzers in 300 or 350gr depending on the most accurate. The rifle will be slotted in between a .338 Win Mag and the .458 Lott so heavy bullets are called for to give a real improvement over the .338. The conversion would certainly give a real increase I like the idea of being able to download the Wby to H&H levels if wanted as I will most likely be using the rifle for Big Game competition as well as hunting.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: rgp]
      #34487 - 08/07/05 11:56 PM

I really like my 375 Ackley, if for no other reason, because it's different-not too many shooters have one. I didn't pick up much velocity over the H&H version with 300 grain bullets-perhaps 80-90 fps. With the 270 grain Barnse XLC loads, I picked up a little over 200 fps compared to the H&H.

I find it interesting when looking at loadings for the 375 H&H and 375 Weatherby in the Barnse manual, that some of the maximum loads listed for the Weatherby actually show lower velocity than the H&H maximum loads.

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HiWall
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #34504 - 09/07/05 07:15 PM

I have made something of an assumption here in that I think that the .375 Wby is an 'improved' version of the .375 H&H, like the Ackley version which will safely chamber .375 H&H.

Can H&H factory ammo be fired in the Wby chamber to fireform cases as in the Ackley version. Headspacing off the belt should allow blowing out of the H&H case??

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rgp
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: HiWall]
      #34505 - 09/07/05 07:43 PM

HiWall,

I don't own one but everyone I've known who has a .375 Weatherby says you can shoot .375 H&H in it. I think the .375 Weatherby is just a .375 Ackley Improved with rounded shoulders.

Still I'd leave the gun as a .375 H&H if it were mine.

Richard.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: HiWall]
      #34512 - 09/07/05 11:23 PM

The following is a quote from the A-SQUARE Handloading And Rifle Manual from 1996: "Like all "improved" versions of a basic cartridge, the .375 Weatherby offers the convenience of accepting the universally available .375 H&H ammo in an emergency."

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: rgp]
      #34531 - 10/07/05 10:53 AM

Richard, you're correct. In fact, the reloading data I use for my Ackley is taken from the reloading information for the Weatherby.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: HiWall]
      #34563 - 11/07/05 04:17 AM

In reply to:

While it is in the 'smith getting the normal things done I am thinking of having it rechambered to .375 Wby Magnum.

Is there any real advantage in having this conversion done?




Only if your goal is to over expand the bullets, or shoot P-Dogs at 400 yds! The added velocity is not needed for hunting the animals the 375 H&H was designed for! It will give you about a two inch flatter trejectory at 300 yds over the old 375 H&H. I don't think I could see the difference in four inch, and a two inch object at 300 yds.

Addtionally, if Buffalo is your target for your CZ, then that two inch flatter trejectory is not worth it to me. Buffalo are dangerous game, and the whole idea in hunting him is, that he is dangerous! He is simply not dangerous at 300 yds., defeating the purpose of uping the speed a little to get the extra flatness of two inches at that distance. When it doesn't give you anything tangable at 35 yds in terms of penetration, or killing power, the effort is wasted money, IMO!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #34564 - 11/07/05 04:34 AM

D

You will only over-expand or over drive a bullet if you use the wrong bullet. A lot of bullets are made only for a particular velocity range. With today's bullet technology, you can safely drive a bullet at the top range and not have it come apart. Myself, I have a 375 Ultra project that is ongoing and see it as a true one rifle Safari gun. All you have to do is see how much success Saeed has had with his (375/404) and his bullets have all held up admirably. The day of having wrong bullets is really in the past unless you're choosing it for the wrong application based on erroneous information.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: 475Guy]
      #34689 - 15/07/05 01:00 AM

In reply to:

Myself, I have a 375 Ultra project that is ongoing and see it as a true one rifle Safari gun. All you have to do is see how much success Saeed has had with his (375/404) and his bullets have all held up admirably. The day of having wrong bullets is really in the past unless you're choosing it for the wrong application based on erroneous information.



That is no qualification for the ULTRA, because the 375 H&H is a "one gun" rifle already, and Saeed would have good luck with a 30-30 on anything he chose to hunt with it. It ain't the rifle in Saeed's case, it is Saeed! The hoped up 375s, will do nothing that the old 1912 375 H&H will not do, with the same bullet, as well, except burn more powder, and produce more recoil!

It is a free country, at least the country I live in, and you may shoot what ever floats your boat, but that doesn't make the ULTRAs better than the plain old chap from H&H! Anything you can hit at 300 yds with your ULTRA I can hit with my old 375 H&H, and kill it just as dead, and the closer you get to the muzzle of the rifle the old H&H works even better! Cutting steel out of the chamber to turn a 375 H&H into a 375 WBY, is simply wasted steel,and money, IMO!

My opinions are worth every penny you pay for them, and are cheap at twice the price!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Mike_McGuire
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Reged: 11/06/05
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #34694 - 15/07/05 09:36 AM

I find it interesting that the 416 Rigby is praised because it can do the 2400 f/s at lower pressure than the 416 Remington and in addition is rimless as opposed to belted.

Is it not true to say the 375 Ultra Vs 375 H&H is a similar situation?

Mike

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rgp
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Posts: 373
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #34698 - 15/07/05 04:30 PM

Mike378,

A lot of people refuse to use a cartridge younger than they are, which accounts for the variance in position.

In my case, I also refuse to purchase anything from Remington.

Richard.

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #34700 - 15/07/05 06:49 PM

Mac

As you say, opinions are free. That and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbuck's.

Since I have a few 375's, I have the Ultra for more horsepower, kinda like boring a small block 283 to 301. You ought to remember wanting and liking more horses. I also have bigger toys that get a good workout. Then again, I also like my 475 Linebaugh, warmloaded 44's and 45 Colts.



--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Edited by 475Guy (16/07/05 11:18 AM)

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Loc: Idaho
Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: 475Guy]
      #35234 - 30/07/05 09:38 AM

I have seen Saeed at AR, kill probably 50 or more buffalo with his 375/404 with 300 gr. monolithic bullets at about 2700 and at 2900 (couldn't tell much difference) and I have to tell you he kills them dead...I, on the other hand, have shot a lot of buffalo with a standard .375 and it has always worked for me, but I can see the difference in the two and the winner is the 375/404 by a margin...

That said, I would not take any amount of money for my English 375 H&H, nor will I ever hesitate to shoot anything with it, including elephant, because after cutting through the BS, it's where you stick'um that counts.

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DarylS
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: atkinson6]
      #36159 - 20/08/05 03:23 AM

Amen.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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N320AW
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: DarylS]
      #36560 - 27/08/05 01:16 PM

I have both the H&H and Weatherby. Personally, I like the Weatherby .375, however, I just cannot see any need for it when compared to the venerable .375 H&H. Sure . . . a little more MV and a little more come-back at the shoulder. That's all. As far as general use for what these calibers were intended-I'll take the H&H anytime.

--------------------
" Nature does not care whether the hunter slays the beast or the beast the hunter She will make good compost of them both and her ends are prospered whichever succeeds. "

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: atkinson6]
      #36572 - 28/08/05 01:47 AM

Old Guy

Hitting them in the right place is ALWAYS the No.1 objective regardless of caliber. It seems that there's the perception that if somebody likes something bigger that he can't shoot. I love the big bangers.



--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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vapodog
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: HiWall]
      #37753 - 18/09/05 02:46 PM

I personally would keep the H&H as is...the weatherby chambering is vastly overrated.

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DarylS
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Re: H&H vs Wby [Re: HiWall]
      #37886 - 21/09/05 02:18 AM

Since the ballistics are so close together, and the game unlikely to tell the difference with most bullet weights used, the big + sign goes to the old standard chambering. Being able to easily procure brass or good, accurate factory ammo in a pinch, outweighs any paper advantage of the slightly, larger capacity round, a handloading proposition from the get-go, just to obtain similar performance.
: With today's range of powders, there isn't very much difference in velocities with standard weight bullets. At the capacity/performance level of the H&H round, it takes a LOT more capacity to gain a worthwile increase in velocity. The Improved .375 case is too small to do this. I am referring to a useable increase, not the mere 100 to 150fps it does give.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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