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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
Posts: 93
Loc: Australia- NSW

7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build
#343495 - 22/07/20 08:45 PM

Been obsessing over Type Bs for a long time. I’ve decided to admit I’ll never own one (any time soon at least). So I’m Going to attempt to build a look a like. I’m starting with a 1937 Portuguese contract receiver (oberndorf marked). I’ll not be D&Ting it for a scope but may D&T the rear ring for a receiver sight, not 100% on that though...

I’m Having Cameron Hatcher copy a Type A stock but leave me enough meat to form a forend schnabel (he doesn’t have a type B and as far as I can tell this is the main difference?). I’ll post more details as I go but my first point I need help with is the barrel profile. Grant Swan (of Allan Swan Barrels) is making me the 28” 7x57 barrel in 1:9 and throating it deep for a 175gr RN seated out to use up the 98 magazine space. However he’s waiting on me to provide barrel contour dimensions. He could use a Lother Walther Type E profile but as far as I know this is more of a type A profile, and i’d prefer to keep it more Type B. From what I can tell (google picture mostly) type Bs predominantly had a military style Knox, followed by a step, then the rear sight sleeve. Was the sight sleeve combined with a second step, or was the sleeve the step? I guess in a pinch I could have a second step and solder a NECG sight base on... some Type Bs seem to have a more modern style Knox and step less profile though, what was behind the difference?

Anyway my most pressing question is - is there anywhere I couldn’t find an original Type B 28” barrel profile? Or would someone’s who has one be able to measure the key dimensions? I would very much appreciate any help!

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

Edited by Wedgetail (23/07/20 06:25 AM)

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
#343496 - 22/07/20 09:49 PM

Wedgie,
I'm not sure if you could use this as a reference based on the Mauser action itself, but if blown up large enough you may be able to scale up from there?

Type B
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101465426

Type A
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101479526

Mauser PreWar?
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101477553

Also added info from Lothar-Walther Barrels
Mauser types Page 17
https://www.lothar-walther.de/media/pdf/8d/04/37/LW-brochure-19.pdf

Hopefully Lancaster or Kudae might be able to assist in this regard as to which 'profile' matches & then go from there
Fingers crossed for you matey
Certainly a worthy project!

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: 93x64mm]
#343500 - 22/07/20 11:25 PM

In page 124 of Jon Speed's "Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" there is a factory drawing of the Type E (English) barrel profile used on rifles made up in calibers from .250" to .350". It's pretty dim and I'm not sure it would scan legibly, but I am willing to give it a try if you will let me have your email address.

Jon Speed says 6.5" to .404" in the text, but the label on the drawing clearly says ".250-.350 u. 6.5-9" The barrel length is given as 600 mm (23.6").

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
#343510 - 23/07/20 01:42 AM

Quote:

Been obsessing over Type Bs for a long time. I’ve decided to admit I’ll never own one (any time soon at least). So I’m Going to attempt to build a look a like. .... I’ll not be D&Ting it for a scope but may D&T the rear ring for a receiver sight, not 100% on that though...

Here is an informative thread posted by member Kuduae a decade ago (click link): Aperature Sights

The Sportarget, Lyman 1A, and Lyman 35 do not require drilling to the receiver.

From 1939 Stoeger (US) catalog:

Parker Hale Sportarget

Lyman 1A

Lyman 35

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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
Posts: 93
Loc: Australia- NSW

Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: xausa]
#343517 - 23/07/20 07:31 AM

Quote:

Wedgie,
I'm not sure if you could use this as a reference based on the Mauser action itself, but if blown up large enough you may be able to scale up from there?

Type B

Type A

Mauser PreWar?

Also added info from Lothar-Walther Barrels
Mauser types Page 17

Hopefully Lancaster or Kudae might be able to assist in this regard as to which 'profile' matches & then go from there
Fingers crossed for you matey
Certainly a worthy project!

Thanks for the links - the first one is what I’m after I think. Scaling from a photo would be a bit tricky To do accurately, especially as the photos pixelate quickly when blown up. Might be a good one to fall back on though...

The LW profiles on page 17 are good, however the ones that interest me most are the type E - regular and lightweight. But pretty sure these are type A profiles

Quote:

In page 124 of Jon Speed's "Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" there is a factory drawing of the Type E (English) barrel profile used on rifles made up in calibers from .250" to .350". It's pretty dim and I'm not sure it would scan legibly, but I am willing to give it a try if you will let me have your email address.

Jon Speed says 6.5" to .404" in the text, but the label on the drawing clearly says ".250-.350 u. 6.5-9" The barrel length is given as 600 mm (23.6").

thanks a lot for the offer - but I’m pretty sure he’s referring to type A (which was Oberndorf’s English style - Type B was their “continental”). If I can’t find a Type B profile I might take you up on that though! It’s slightly odd that there seems to be a lot more info and options out there for Type A rifles than Type B - although just going on auction and sale numbers Type B seem the more common rifle nowadays...

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
Posts: 93
Loc: Australia- NSW

Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
#343518 - 23/07/20 07:53 AM

Quote:

Here is an informative thread posted by member Kuduae a decade ago (click link): Aperature Sights

The Sportarget, Lyman 1A, and Lyman 35 do not require drilling to the receiver.

thanks for those Rothhammer, the info page about the Mauser details is especially interesting. I’m still trying to decide on sights. The cocking piece peeps aren’t very cool looking there’s no doubt. However, I associate them more with rigby than type Bs, and to get them accurate I’d have to do a lot of work tightening up the cocking piece, not to mention the fitting and initial purchase price.

I’m in two minds about a receiver peep sight - on the one hand they’re a very good sight (have an old steel Lyman 66 on a lever action and it’s excellent) - accurate, easily adjustable and sort of period. But they’re also very American, and as far as I can tell never an original Mauser fitment. But maybe I could relent And allow myself a modern alteration... a Lyman 35 would be amazing but would probably cost as much as the stock and barrel combined.

I am sure I want an original style barrel mounted rear sight base those - even if I end up not mounting sight I want the option. Partly for looks, but also with the 28” barrel I’d Ben getting a good sight radius so might consider it. Was the rear sight base a sleeve like a military one on a type B? And can you modify a military one to match? Was the barrel diameter the same in that spot? Can a military tangent sight be made to look like a type B tangent sight?

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

Edited by Wedgetail (23/07/20 07:55 AM)

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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA

Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
#343519 - 23/07/20 08:07 AM

Don't worry about a little wiggle with a cocking piece sight. The aperture has to move 8 thousandths with a sight radius that long, to shift the bullet impact 1" at 100 yards. And .008" is a lot of wiggle.
The cocking piece and sear engagement surfaces will tend to go back to the same spot anyway, once everything wears together.
You can make a notch like Rigby's did, but it's not really necessary.I have a rifle that shoots 2" all day long, and it's not done.

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Spud303
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Reged: 25/05/11
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: MikeRowe]
#343529 - 23/07/20 10:18 AM

Wedgetail,
I have a Type B Oberndorf in 7x57 (1924 production) that is fitted with Lyman 35. I'll measure the barrel & send you the specs.
Spud303

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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
Posts: 93
Loc: Australia- NSW

Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Spud303]
#343533 - 23/07/20 11:55 AM

Quote:

Wedgetail,
I have a Type B Oberndorf in 7x57 (1924 production) that is fitted with Lyman 35. I'll measure the barrel & send you the specs.
Spud303

mate that is fantastic thanks a lot! Sounds like a perfect rifle too... if it’s too much faff attaching photos I can PM you my mobile number?

out of interest is it this barrel style?

Or this?

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

Edited by Wedgetail (23/07/20 11:57 AM)

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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
Posts: 93
Loc: Australia- NSW

Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: MikeRowe]
#343534 - 23/07/20 11:56 AM

Quote:

Don't worry about a little wiggle with a cocking piece sight. The aperture has to move 8 thousandths with a sight radius that long, to shift the bullet impact 1" at 100 yards. And .008" is a lot of wiggle.
The cocking piece and sear engagement surfaces will tend to go back to the same spot anyway, once everything wears together.
You can make a notch like Rigby's did, but it's not really necessary.I have a rifle that shoots 2" all day long, and it's not done.

that makes my decision slightly harder - I’d sort of discounted them! Definitely still interested now though, is anyone making new ones? What are they worth normally?

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California

Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
#343537 - 23/07/20 02:49 PM

Quote:

...the info page about the Mauser details is especially interesting... the cocking piece peeps... very cool looking... initial purchase price.

...receiver peep sight... they’re also very American, and as far as I can tell never an original Mauser fitment... a Lyman 35 would be amazing but would probably cost as much as the stock and barrel combined.

Was the rear sight base a sleeve like a military one on a type B? And can you modify a military one to match? Was the barrel diameter the same in that spot? Can a military tangent sight be made to look like a type B tangent sight?

I'm glad you found the images to be of use. The 'options' page shows that pre - WW2 buyers had several factory installed options available to them across model lines. In other words a sight that may initially seem 'improper' may well have been available as a factory installed 'cost option' when new. Surely images of Mauser, ZUM, and other European catalogs and advertisements of the day would provide more examples.

Regarding your type B sight/ military/ sleeve/ modification question, I don't know.
I have but cursory knowledge of Mausers, member Kuduae would likely be an excellent source of accurate information on the topic. Hopefully he'll 'weigh in'.

For highly detailed, high resolution photos that will enlarge well, look through Dorleac's archives and / or contact (member) Joel Dorleac. He is an expert restorer of Continental firearms and certainly knows his stuff.

My 1924 proofed Mannlicher Schoenauer M1910 Take Down (yes, I know, it's Austrian) wears a factory installed 'pop up' tang sight of the type that was also available (factory installed?) on Mausers:

I'd love to get hold of a Sportarget. Watch Ebay and other auction listings for Lyman 35.

Lyman 35 parts: Ebay 35 parts

Sportarget with different mount: Ebay Sportarget

Pricey Lyman 35: Pricey

This looks like the model Kuduae modified in his thread: PH Sportarget

Did you notice the "half round, half octagon barrel with raised matted solid rib" on the Model 610 image?
"Supplied regularly only in caliber .30 - 06 U.S. but can be had on special order in any Mauser caliber."

Parker Hale Sportarget on Mannlicher Schoenauer:

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Spud303
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Reged: 25/05/11
Posts: 48
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
#343539 - 23/07/20 04:13 PM

Wedgetail, it has the lower barrel style with fixed rear sight. I'll have a crack at posting some photos but never seem to have much luck (your phone No. is probably a good back-up). Great hunting rifle. Definitely likes German ammunition (RWS & Geco) with heavier projectiles. Also really likes the older style Win Super-X with 175 gr RN but these tend to punch thru Fallow without opening up.
Spud

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Spud303]
#343540 - 23/07/20 04:46 PM

Quote:

...I'll have a crack at posting some photos but never seem to have much luck (your phone No. is probably a good back-up). G

Try this: Post Photos NE

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Rothhammer1]
#343541 - 23/07/20 05:19 PM

Here is a Dorleac restored 7X64 'Spezial Luxusmodell' Model B with half octagon barrel, Mauser factory engraving, ... circa 1940: Luxus B

Another Dorleac Model B, this in 9X57 and ca. 1913: Pre WW1 B

Type B in 10.75X68: Big B

Type B, 8X60S: 8X60S B

If you look through the rifles in Dorleac's "Manufacturing in Progress" section you'll see that their stock work is blueprinted. Perhaps he'd share details and information from Mauser B's that he has restocked?

Examples:

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Spud303]
#343562 - 24/07/20 06:02 AM

Yes Dorleac certainly does stunning work and hasn’t an enviable collection. Thanks for all the links. Does his site have an English section? I certainly wouldn’t mind picking his brain!

Quote:

Wedgetail, it has the lower barrel style with fixed rear sight. I'll have a crack at posting some photos but never seem to have much luck (your phone No. is probably a good back-up). Great hunting rifle. Definitely likes German ammunition (RWS & Geco) with heavier projectiles. Also really likes the older style Win Super-X with 175 gr RN but these tend to punch thru Fallow without opening up.
Spud

sounds good Spud. I PMD you my number last night. So it doesn’t shoot lighter bullets so well? Do you reload?

Edited by Wedgetail (24/07/20 06:27 AM)

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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
#343586 - 24/07/20 04:15 PM

Ok the hunt for a barrel profile is over - spud303 has delivered very conclusively!

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
#343587 - 24/07/20 05:04 PM

Ok chasing a little more advice - When cutting the barrel threads, the general consensus is to make the tenon the correct length so the inner C ring and outer leading edge contact their respective surfaces at the same time, maybe a thou or two one way depending on who you speak to. HOWEVER, these model Bs (as spud’s diagram shows) are like the military barrels in that their shoulder OD is essentially the same as the thread diameter. Meaning there is no shoulder to seat against. In general, the inner C ring isn’t 100% square (mine is 0.004” out cf the leading edge, which is 0.002” out). It seems unusual for people to lap the inner C ring, but not unheard of.

So, what is the standard for installing k98 or model B type barrels that have no shoulder? Do you lap the inner C ring to be 100% square? Do you not worry about 0.002”? Do I try and obtain (or make) a C ring lapping tool? Other option is I could get the shoulder say 0.050” - 0.100” wider to give it a shoulder - wouldn’t probably be overly noticeable. Then I could cut the tenon say 0.002” short and have most of the bearing surface on the (easily squared) leading edge)? I won’t be scoping this rifle, will the difference be noticeable? I doubt the inner rings wear, so I assume they wouldn’t have minded the 0.002” discrepancy at the oberndorf factory.

Edited by Wedgetail (24/07/20 05:07 PM)

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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
#343588 - 24/07/20 06:30 PM

Here is spud303’s beauty, and the awesome barrel reference diagram

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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Spud303
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Reged: 25/05/11
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
#343589 - 24/07/20 07:17 PM

WedgeT, thanks for posting those photos. Good luck with the project.
Spud

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metal
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Reged: 30/04/13
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Spud303]
#343591 - 24/07/20 08:05 PM

Wedgetail I sent you a pm

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vykkagur
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: metal]
#343603 - 25/07/20 01:53 AM

With the prices being charged for the genuine Parker-Hale and Lyman sights, it's a wonder no one's cranking out Chinese repros for $99.

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Wedgetail
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: vykkagur]
#343742 - 28/07/20 06:38 AM

Couple more questions on originality: did Type Bs eve have the slab side panels in the stock either side of the action? I’m thinking these were mostly done by the independent German gun makers, but feel I have seen pictures of a type B with them. Also were they mostly an earlier feature?

And trigger guard bows - did the Type Bs ever have the shotgun style, or was that purely independents again? I read a post where someone claims they did but have never seen it. I have a bottom metal with DSTs inletted but has a shotgun trigger bow fitted. I’m thinking of grafting a military one on and shaping it back a bit. Unless someone has a bottom metal with DST inletted and a solid bow they’d like to swap?

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
#343744 - 28/07/20 08:06 AM

Quote:

Couple more questions on originality: did Type Bs eve have the slab side panels in the stock either side of the action? I’m thinking these were mostly done by the independent German gun makers, but feel I have seen pictures of a type B with them...

...And trigger guard bows - did the Type Bs ever have the shotgun style... I have a bottom metal with DSTs inletted... .

There's no info with this auction listing, but some photos: 7X57 Slab DST

Another:
Mauser B 1912

Another:

Perhaps these folks know the answer to when 'slab sides' were used and on which models: Renner

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Huvius
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Wedgetail]
#343745 - 28/07/20 08:08 AM

Early Bs often did have flat panels on the stock as the two pictures show above with the rounded edge at the rear and no corresponding edge at the front.
I’m not certain if Mauser offered a shotgun style trigger guard on any of their cataloged models. I don’t think they did.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Wedgetail
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Reged: 22/07/20
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Re: 7x57 Type B Oberndorf style build [Re: Huvius]
#343756 - 28/07/20 07:31 PM

Quote:

I’m not certain if Mauser offered a shotgun style trigger guard on any of their cataloged models. I don’t think they did.

i think this is the conclusion I’m coming to. Damn. So had they completely done away with slabs by say the 1930s? And did oberndorf never produce “full” slabs?

Thanks for the links Rothhammer. Interestingly that first one with the full slab sides also has a shotgun trigger bow... although it’s not a very original looking rifle so maybe that bits changed. I do like the stock though. In fact I think I like slab sides, just trying to decide if I like them enough to deviate from my initial desire of creating as close to an original as I realistically can in terms of style - my action is marked 1937

--------------------
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” - Rudyard Kipling

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