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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Stephen Grant research - SHAME
      #343215 - 11/07/20 08:46 AM

I have been slowly accumulating records from the existing makers of my vintage/antique Brit rifles and have found most to be very helpful and enjoyable to deal with.
Thankyous to:
John Roberts
Rigby
Cogswell and Harrison
Dickson (for Alexander Henry)
Jeffery (via Thomas Friedkin)
Purdey (for Woodward)
Wm. Evans

SHAME:
I wish I could say the same for Francis Lovel and the Atkin, Grant, & Lang businesses.
I have a very nice circa 1873-74 Stephen Grant .577 Express Double and over the last couple of years have exhausted every avenue (phone/Post/email) attempting to contact either firm with not even the courtesy of a reply.

Apparently the Grant records are personally held by Francis Lovel; the Francis Lovel & Co., Ltd. still have a business and website.
https://www.francislovel.com/

So I wonder; do they have no appreciation of the history of Stephen Grant firearms and those of us that preserve them? Do they purposely ignore those of us located outside the UK or Commonwealth?
It is not like one expects the research and a letter for FREE...the other houses do it for a nominal fee and I’m happy to pay.

If there are any members here that might know what it takes to get info from Lovel on the Stephen Grant rifles it would be appreciated. Shame that records seemingly exist but are kept hidden.......they may as well just bin them for all the good it does keeping them.

- Mike




--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26501
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: 3DogMike]
      #343217 - 11/07/20 09:47 AM

Ohhhhhhhhh that is nice!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: DarylS]
      #343221 - 11/07/20 10:08 AM

Cool 577 Express

I look forward to seeing your field results!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: tinker]
      #343222 - 11/07/20 10:24 AM

I have had the Grant .577 Express since 2015 and previously posted it here a few years ago, but the self immolation of PhotoBucket buried the usefulness of the posts.
Delightful rifle, and shows much better in the hand than my pictures convey.

‘Tis a fun shooter, and at 8lbs 4oz packs a pretty good wallop with 5 Dram 480 grain bullet straight black powder loads.

Will re-post photos via IMGUR in a day or two
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2396
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: 3DogMike]
      #343225 - 11/07/20 12:55 PM

I did something similar with the Greener Single shot I acquired via this board from Caspar50, Mike Harrell.

I went on Greener's website, and paid the required fee. I followed that up with the required photo's and with 8 hours I had a response from Graham Greener.

Dear Mr Dickens,

Thank you for your order, photos of your rifle and payment for information.

W W Greener single barrel Martini actioned rifle, no 46543 was made in 1898.

Our company made Martini .577 large bore military rifles and so it was logical to produce Express rifles for big game hunting using the same martini action in .577 and other calibres. From 1872 onwards W W Greener made two types of Martini action sporting rifles. The ‘S’ model had a round barrel with either pistol grip or straight hand stock and it cost 10 guineas when sold. A special ‘S1’ grade with octagonal barrel, superior finish, hand or machine engraving on the action and better quality walnut stock was also made. This cost 15 guineas when sold originally. One guinea was one pound and one shilling in old English money, or £15.75 in today’s money. Both ‘S’ and ‘S1’ models were made in .360, .400, .500 and .577 calibres.

Your rifle is the better quality ‘S1’ model, a .500 Express rifle with a full pistol grip stock of ‘fiddle back’ walnut. At some time past the front sight has been replaced by a non- standard type. We no longer make sights for rifles but it should be possible to source one at one of the many gun auctions in UK and your own country. Holt’s auctioneers in UK hold quarterly auctions and frequently have sights and parts in their sales. Your rifle is based on the Martini rifle and I attach a diagram of the action which I hope will be helpful. I also attach a page from one of our period gun catalogues showing fore sights. Your rifle was probably fitted with a bead or barleycorn sight as at the top of the page. The stock has also been modified at some time past and fitted with a modern rubber recoil pad. Originally it would have been fitted with a steel butt plate.

Your rifle was proved by the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House in 1898 and it bears the marks of that establishment in use form 1896 to 1904. It also bears the registered trade mark ‘elephant’ of W W Greener so from the photos the rifle appears to be genuine.

I regret our records of Martini rifles do not contain much information and the name or the original owner or person ordering the rifle are not recorded.

Kind regards,

Graham N Greener
Director

W W Greener (Sporting Guns) Limited
Telegraph House, 59 Wolverhampton Road,
Stafford, ST17 4AW, United Kingdom.
Tel: +44 (0)1666-510351

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26501
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: DoubleD]
      #343231 - 12/07/20 02:07 AM

Now THAT is good service!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: DarylS]
      #343233 - 12/07/20 02:28 AM

Hey Mike.

What a lovely .577 Express.

In regards to Francis Lowell...Well. Shoot them a finger. I know...it’s no consolation but it helps sometimes.


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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: rigbymauser]
      #343234 - 12/07/20 05:18 AM

Funny thing this one being "Second Quality".......
Stalking safeties and non-rebounding locks. At 8lbs 4oz it is quite light for a 3", betting it was possibly originally a 2 1/2" case and chambers dropped when 2 1/2' became unavailable?
Therein is why the info in the Grant records would be so interesting.
- Mike
















--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26501
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: 3DogMike]
      #343236 - 12/07/20 07:11 AM

Lovely indeed!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: DarylS]
      #343238 - 12/07/20 08:39 AM

Excellent indeed, the engraving as well as the 3 stub Damascus barrels a joy to behold

I would certainly put it as "best"

TH44


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: TH44]
      #343239 - 12/07/20 09:16 AM

Beautiful rifle indeed!
Simply marvellous stuff!

Interesting ammo box...
Never seen "Nitro for Black" on a red-and-yellow Kynoch Nitro Express box before. Is it vintage?
My cartridge box collection clearly has gaps...!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26501
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: Marrakai]
      #343240 - 12/07/20 09:33 AM

Are you sure that isn't 2 stripe?
Whatever it is, it is beautiful.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: Marrakai]
      #343246 - 12/07/20 01:28 PM

Quote:

Beautiful rifle indeed!
Simply marvellous stuff!

Interesting ammo box...
Never seen "Nitro for Black" on a red-and-yellow Kynoch Nitro Express box before. Is it vintage?
My cartridge box collection clearly has gaps...!



Hello Tony,
The Kynoch box is an empty current production from Kynamco.

So far I have been unable to source a proper vintage .577 3" Black Powder or NfB box of either Kynoch or Eley make. I keep looking.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: 3DogMike]
      #343247 - 12/07/20 01:56 PM

OK thanks for clarifying Mike.

If I ever find two vintage Kynoch NfB .577 boxes, you can have the second one!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Viking338
.333 member


Reged: 11/08/11
Posts: 480
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: Marrakai]
      #343248 - 12/07/20 02:09 PM

That is beautiful! And I am with Daryl, it looks like two stripe to me too?

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AlanD
.275 member


Reged: 14/12/08
Posts: 55
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: Viking338]
      #343250 - 12/07/20 05:04 PM

I am surprised to hear you have not received a reply from Francis Lovel who has the Atkin Grant & Lang records. My experience with the company is the opposite to yours. While I was visiting the UK in October last year I telephoned them and asked if I could look at their ledgers that covered the First and Second World War periods, as this is the aspect of the British gun trade that interests me. Permission was given and I turned up the next morning and all the ledgers were put on the shop counter in front of me and I spent two hours going through them. I was allowed to photograph what I wanted without restriction. I had a good talk with Mr Lovel who managed to find the company minutes for AG&L out the back, which I also photographed sections that were of interest.
I found all the team really friendly and Francis has great pride in the history of AG&L and in the extensive reconditioning for modern use of older AG&L shotguns.

All my dealings with the British Gun Trade have been very affable, perhaps with a couple of exceptions where I have had to go back for a second attempt at gaining access to records a few years later, which was successful. All this in spite of my off-beat interest in the British gun trade's contribution to the two World Wars, which takes a bit of explaining when I make initial contact!

Regards

Alan David
Sydney
Australia


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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: DarylS]
      #343255 - 13/07/20 07:55 AM

Daryl, you have got me thinking







From "Greener, The Gun and its Development

I can be corrected, what do you guys think?

TH44


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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3987
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: TH44]
      #343266 - 13/07/20 04:53 PM

3DM you certainly have a very lovely piece of kit there, it may be 'second quality' on the books - but it certainly is a quality sporting arm regardless to look as good as this still after all this time!
I certainly hope you keep this rather 'slim old lady' singing in tune for a long time yet.
Certainly hope you can get you part of the ledger verified for you, perhaps Alan has a lot of charm!
Well done mate, we're all certainly all envious.
93x64mm


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HeymSR20
.300 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 244
Loc: Scotland
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: 93x64mm]
      #343282 - 14/07/20 05:13 AM

Most Gunshops, like many other retailers that are considered non essential have been required by law to shut, with all their staff being furloughed. For many businesses it has been much better to completely stop for three months rather than trying ti maintain ongoing business. If you have stopped then you get grants that cover rent /rates and staff costs.

Many many UK businesses are only now just re-opening and I suspect will have a big backlog.

I have used Francis Lovell in the past and have found them to be perfect gentlemen. But they are running a business and just because you have a Stephen Grant shotgun, doesnt mean that you have an automatic right to all the information that have acquired etc etc. I expect digging through the records would take some time. Time that most businesses post Covid cannot really afford as they have been closed for several months.


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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: HeymSR20]
      #343283 - 14/07/20 05:59 AM

Deleted.....not feeding trolls

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HeymSR20
.300 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 244
Loc: Scotland
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: 3DogMike]
      #343296 - 14/07/20 10:17 PM

And you might get a better response from the Company that actually has the Records - ie Atkin Grant & Lang.

Indeed they even have a page about their history on their website and an email whereby you can request - for a fee of £55 - a full history of your rifle based on the serial number.

https://www.agl-uk.com/gun-makers/history


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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: HeymSR20]
      #343299 - 14/07/20 11:38 PM

Deleted....not worth it

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39242
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: 3DogMike]
      #343307 - 15/07/20 10:58 PM

Quote:

Deleted....not worth it




What's the story here? I can't see anything provocative.

And I was thinking seeing the positive responses where people have had good service and responses, that the possible no response might well because there is no one or few working in the gunmaker's business. Or that it is completely closed at the moment.

I know I wanted some stuff from a US business and their website indicated they are sending anything at the time, due to C19.

Quote:

f there are any members here that might know what it takes to get info from Lovel on the Stephen Grant rifles it would be appreciated.




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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LGF
.275 member


Reged: 27/04/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Kenya/Berkeley, CA
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: 3DogMike]
      #343410 - 20/07/20 07:34 AM

In January I inquired with AGL about a 10 bore Grant hammer shotgun and got an immediate response with basic information on the gun and the usual offer of full data upon payment of a fee. I phoned a few weeks later to give my credit card number and never heard from them again (my card was not charged); subsequent emails were not answered.

I recently heard that they are closed due to the virus, and that their normal excellent service would resume upon reopening.


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LGF
.275 member


Reged: 27/04/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Kenya/Berkeley, CA
Re: Stephen Grant research - SHAME [Re: LGF]
      #344714 - 01/09/20 10:50 AM

I wrote to AGL again last week and got a prompt response. They are open and processing records requests again.

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