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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Marrakai]
      #16048 - 21/06/04 02:52 PM

How much "barrel" is left in front of the chamber of that Martini pistol?



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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #35664 - 10/08/05 07:08 PM

Another Howdah

H&H .577Snider

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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #35665 - 10/08/05 07:34 PM

Try Again!

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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Marrakai]
      #35666 - 10/08/05 07:37 PM

I can not put pic up for some reason any expert advice out there on how to do this? Thanks

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Marrakai
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #35667 - 10/08/05 07:45 PM

RLI:
Right-click on the link in my previous post, select 'Properties' from the menu, and check the url address. Now do the same on the red-X in your post. Note the difference.

Nice piece by the way, but I wish they wouldn't photograph these things in the castle dungeon during a candle shortage!

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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Marrakai]
      #36000 - 18/08/05 01:01 AM

Let's not forget all the great muzzle-loading Howdahs. They're very potent and completely legal. I have a .69 caliber (14 bore) set of Mortimers that would really get the job done. As a matter of fact, I'm certain that they pack a bigger punch than my .557 Snider (sht) by Lyon & Lyon.

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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #36008 - 18/08/05 04:25 AM

This should work. right click on the picture, then select properties, and put in the [image] and [/image] brackets and your pictures will work on this forum. You had two http:// at the start of your address - that's why it didn't work.

:Beautiful pistol, but it would smack the wrist pretty hard with it's back strap shape, instead of climbing up like a single action does. Still, it would be a treasure to own.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII

Edited by Daryl_S (18/08/05 04:27 AM)


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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #36055 - 18/08/05 02:30 PM

Thanks for the advice on posting pics Marrakai and Daryl S . I would think it would be just the the pistol for Grizzly in your part of the world, no tigers here in Australia so a charging porker will have to do! But I think too rare to shoot so into the gunsafe

Steve

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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #36059 - 18/08/05 03:58 PM

The Howdah in the above photo is by Holland and it will be auctioned off in London at Holt's gallery on September 7th if anyone is really interested in owning it. The photo posted is from the Holt's auction preview catalog. Auction estimate is placed at 3,000 to 5,000 sterling. It's a wonderful pistol and I wouldn't hesitate to fire it. Regards, Poacher.

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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #36062 - 18/08/05 04:09 PM

If able to actually construct and shoot a modern version of one of these beasts in Australia, why won't they let you get a Freedom Arms revolver in .475 Linebaugh instead? I've read through a ton of Australian firearms regulations, and no matter what the regulations appear to state, I suspect that anyone with a few million dollars in their bank account can still buy any gun they would ever want.

Richard.


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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: rgp]
      #342759 - 24/06/20 11:52 AM

BTTT

Tags: Howdah

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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #342769 - 24/06/20 08:34 PM

LEGALITIES ASIDE, WHATEVER IS DISCUSSED HAS TO BE LEGALLY DOABLE WHERE YOU LIVE. SO NO NEED FOR SOMEONE TO SAY "STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS, IT IS ILLEGAL! OR SOME SUCH GUFF."

There was talk on this thread of cutting back a Pedersoli in .45/70 to make a Howdah pistol. This would be quite costly. The donor rifle not cheap. It would not be regulated, unless the barrels were separate and redone. It would have hammers.

Now I was thinking, what about a Baikal .45/70?

A major difference is no hammers. I really like hammers as such a howdah pistol can be carried more safely loaded with hammers.

But a major plus is one-fifth to one-tenth the donor cost. My rifle I picked up for A$800 simply because it was there and to have a play with. I had a look and immediately found one for sale in Tasmania right now for something like $1100.

If legal permission was obtained, the barrels could be cut off just in front of the forend. The butt cut back to a suitable shaped pistol grip, or removed and replaced with a new walnut pistol grip. The muzzles reworked and new sights added, probably front and rear? I will have to take the "ribs" off mine and see how far the barrels are separated? Perhaps wedges might still work to allow some sort of regulation?

A lot of people have complained about their Baikals were not able to be regulated(?).

Now as to Howdahs and regulation. How regulated were real original howdahs? They were designed to be shot at very close range. Say ten feet or less. So really point and shoot, preferably touching the fur without getting scratched or bitten!

A reason a cutback 20-bore might be just as good as a rifled pistol. Because of such inaccurate but close range shooting.

Nowadays if shooting targets, touching the paper target wouldn't be very competitive or exciting.

I think if making such a rifled howdah, it would be nice to have something, something like accurate and able to be shot well at sensible distances.

Then there is the discussion of recoil. The lightish weight of Baikals in .45/70s for some people are not comfortable to shoot. So cutting back to a howdah and shooting? How(dah) would that work?!

What weight would a cutback Baikal howdah work at? What weight was an average .577 brass case break open Howdah?

Lets have a discussion on recoil and what is manageable.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (24/06/20 08:40 PM)


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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #342770 - 24/06/20 09:50 PM

IMO a base position. Anyway for me. Unless it was a muzzle loader.

BGRC Howdah Rules

Howdah Pistol (Q)
a. Minimum calibre .375
b. Single or double barrel
c. Smooth or ball rifling
d. Min. muzzle energy 1,000 ft lbs
e. Min. 300 grain bullet weight

FIRING SEQUENCE
Howdah Pistol (max. 10 shots)
25yds – to be decided by Host Branch
10yds – to be decided by Host Branch
(“Tiger” target if possible)

More than a bit boring, the target shooting. Bang bang shooting at some paper. Even if a "Tiger" target.

A Howdah wasn't standing in a staid line shooting at a stationary piece of paper! It was sitting in a rocking perhaps tipping howdah elephant saddle, while a tiger was running at you, leaping onto the elephant's heading, clawing at the mahout, while the gentleman drew a howdah from a holster in the corner of the howdah saddle and shot the tiger. Or a tiger on the rump of the elephant doing similar.

Now I have been in a howdah several times. And it is nothing like standing in a boring line pinging at boring paper targets. One time was in the mountains of Thailand. This howdah was a very polished teak chair, no box sides like a lot of the hunting howdahs, and ones bum slid around that chair due to the polishing. One had to really hang on! I had my day bag, a big video camera and my SLR camera. Had to hang onto these and the rail of the chairs side. As the elephant walked on cliff side mountain paths and raocked from side to side. In danger of falling off!

Now if a tiger jumped onto an elephant's head I imagine the ride might be even more rocky and precarious! An elephant rearing onto its hind legs, rocking side to side in fright and fight. Shooting that howdah pistol would not have been such an easy affair. Just came to mind is another reason for a PISTOL, compared to a rifle or other long arm. One was probably having to hang on for dear life with one hand, while trying to shoot the tiger off one's back! As the saying goes.

One of the other times in a howdah was filming tigers in India. In the Tiger parks, the staff look for tiger sign on the roads. Then use an elephant to trek into the jungle to try and find where the tiger's are lying up. Once found, the staff setup a rallying point for hundreds of Indian tourists who drive there, waiting ina jabbering crowd, in queues, get on an elephant, ones uses a ladder did you know? Then trek on the eles back for several hundred metres to "view the tiger".

When we did this, the mahout was very nice and allowed us a much longer time over the tiger. Probably because of my impressive big video camera. Of course he got a decent tip. It was disappointing that this tiger was very hidden under a thorn thicket, and while it could be seen with the naked eye, glaring at us from underneath, the images in the video and SLR stills were unfocused or mostly so, because of all the thorn bush branches in between. One had to try to focus through them, and reasonably quickly.

The Indian tourists in this park, Kanha I think it was, generally can drive in the park themselves. Most go straight to the centre station. Wait in a steaming crowd of seeming thousands, just for the tiger sighting, elephant etc. Almost no interest in other wildlife species. A really poor show. These parks could be run so much better. Especially for the wildlife.

So back to the competition. Really it needs to incorporate some of the realities of the Howdah experience. Not a boring target shooting lines.

The BGRC does have some charging shoots. Lion and buffalo. These are great fun. Shot with a rifle.

Now a charging tiger would at the least be an improvement. Ideally shooting from a "portable" Howdah platform. Preferably one a little unstable. Unstable enough so movement causes it to rock a little. Not so unstable as to be firearms unsafe though, in our modern cotton wool world.

Ideally I would build a wooden framed "howdah" box, with canvas or board sides, richly decorated! Add a wooden seat or two inside. Perhaps the range officer sitting behind. Should wear a turban of course. The shooter in a pith helmet! The competitor first faces a charging tiger, ideally from say 25 metres to the side-front and lower, simulating sitting on the back of an elephant. The competitor shoots his double rifle or bolt action twice at the charging tiger, hands the EMPTY rifle to his number two for safety and draws the howdah pistol. Then when the charging tiger reaches a point below the howdah box, a pop up tiger springs up in front of the howdah seat, and the competitor needs to shoot both barrels into it in X seconds.

Complicated, hey? But would be great fun. I think the BGRC Howdah shoot sequence is enough to put one to sleep. Zzzzzzzzzz.

A small but major problem is probably next to no one has a howdah pistol to shoot with! Had the BGRC ever actually had one of these shoots? A club howdah smooth bore "sawn off" would be a great idea for people to shoot and play with.

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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #342771 - 24/06/20 10:04 PM

Quote:


BGRC Howdah Rules

Howdah Pistol (Q)
a. Minimum calibre .375
b. Single or double barrel
c. Smooth or ball rifling
d. Min. muzzle energy 1,000 ft lbs
e. Min. 300 grain bullet weight






Ha ha. My actual main point was the above.

Their rules also preclude muzzle loaders. Mine does not! If it is a double barrelled Howdah pistol. As only two shots are fired.

So what cartridges would be suitable for the above?

What existing hand gun cartridges would fulfill these needs?

What shotgun cartridges loaded with slug or ball would satisfy these minimums?

I will do some searching, but suggestions with calibre, bullet weight and energy levels should be included. And also if possible recoil energy and velocity. In a suitable weight firearm a howdah would be.

Can anyone supply the weight of a typical howdah pistol?

Lets have a look? Not all of these might be adequate for the criteria.

The .577 howdah cartridges? I am not knowledgeable on these?

.45/70
.45 Long Colt
20-bore shotgun
16-bore shotgun
12-bore shotgun
28-bore shotgun?

Just for comparison, .367 Magnum

Others?
.454 Casull, Ripps new bear handgun?




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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (24/06/20 10:09 PM)


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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #342772 - 24/06/20 10:18 PM

Quote:


BGRC Howdah Rules

Howdah Pistol (Q)
a. Minimum calibre .375
b. Single or double barrel
c. Smooth or ball rifling
d. Min. muzzle energy 1,000 ft lbs
e. Min. 300 grain bullet weight







300 grs, Energy minimum 1,000 ft lbs. = minimum of 1,225 fps muzzle velocity/

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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #342774 - 24/06/20 10:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:


BGRC Howdah Rules

Howdah Pistol (Q)
a. Minimum calibre .375
b. Single or double barrel
c. Smooth or ball rifling
d. Min. muzzle energy 1,000 ft lbs
e. Min. 300 grain bullet weight







300 grs, Energy minimum 1,000 ft lbs. = minimum of 1,225 fps muzzle velocity/




Weight of a howdah pistol?

One example:

Quote:

The Original Howdah Pistol is a reproduction of the famous Auto & Burglar model made by Ithaca Company around 1920. This modern version features rifled barrels chambered for . 45LC/.
...
Product Specs.
Item Number REV/S640.410
Barrel Length 10.25'' Round
Caliber .45LC/410
Capacity 2
Weight 7.2 lbs

https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/specials/pedersoli-products/original-howdah-pistol.html





So I will use 7.2 lbs for now.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php

Recoil stats:

Bullet Weight:
300
(gr)
Bullet Velocity:
1225
(fps)
Powder Charge Weight:
20 (I used this just as an example)
(gr)
Firearm Weight:
7.2
(lbs)
Recoil Impulse
2.08
(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity
9.28
(fps)
Recoil Energy
9.63
(ft.lbf

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (24/06/20 10:32 PM)


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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #342777 - 24/06/20 10:53 PM

Quote:


BGRC Howdah Rules
.
Howdah Pistol (Q)
a. Minimum calibre .375
b. Single or double barrel
c. Smooth or ball rifling
d. Min. muzzle energy 1,000 ft lbs
e. Min. 300 grain bullet weight
.
.
300 grs, Energy minimum 1,000 ft lbs. = minimum of 1,225 fps muzzle velocity.
.
Weight of a howdah pistol? 7.2 lbs
.
.
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php
.
Recoil stats:
.
Bullet Weight:
300
(gr)
Bullet Velocity:
1225
(fps)
Powder Charge Weight:
20 (I used this just as an example)
(gr)
Firearm Weight:
7.2
(lbs)
Recoil Impulse
2.08
(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity
9.28
(fps)
Recoil Energy
9.63
(ft.lbf




.45 Long Colt 22" barrel (rifle)
300 gr, 22 grs powder, 1550 fps

Bullet Weight:
300
(gr)
Bullet Velocity:
1550
(fps)
Powder Charge Weight:
22
(gr)
Firearm Weight:
7.2
(lbs)
Recoil Impulse
2.55
(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity
11.41
(fps)
Recoil Energy
14.56
(ft.lbf)

Mass:
300
(gr)
Velocity:
1550
(fps)
Energy:
1601
(ft.lbf)
2170
(joules)


.577 Bland-Pryse Revolver Stopper

Pushing approximately a 400 grain bullet at about 725 fps, these 5-shot revolvers were made as last-ditch “stopping” guns in case of attack by large animals, and most of them were taken to India during the Victorian period.
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/577-caliber-bland-pryse-stopping-revolver/

Bullet Weight:
400
(gr)
Bullet Velocity:
725
(fps)
Powder Charge Weight:
15
(gr)
Firearm Weight:
7.2
(lbs)
Recoil Impulse
1.62
(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity
7.24
(fps)
Recoil Energy
5.87
(ft.lbf)

Mass:
400
(gr)
Velocity:
725
(fps)
Energy:
467
(ft.lbf)
633
(joules)


.45-70 Ballistics
Typical 45-70 ballistics with modern factory ammo are a 300gr bullet at 2,350fps (3,678 ft-lbs), a 325gr bullet at 2,050fps (3,032 ft-lbs), and a 405gr bullet at 1,330fps (1,591 ft-lbs). The .45-70 Govt is very effective out to around 150 yards with minimal bullet drop, but it’s capable of great accuracy and longer range shooting as well.

One .45-70 load approximates the performance of the original .45-70 Govt black powder loading of a 405 grain bullet (.307 BC) at 1350 feet per second while the other is a 325gr Hornady LEVERevolution factory load (.230 BC).

Lets use 405 grs, 1,330 fps, 27 grs

Bullet Weight:
405
(gr)
Bullet Velocity:
1330
(fps)
Powder Charge Weight:
27
(gr)
Firearm Weight:
7.2
(lbs)
Recoil Impulse
2.99
(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity
13.37
(fps)
Recoil Energy
19.99
(ft.lbf)

Mass:
405
(gr)
Velocity:
1330
(fps)
Energy:
1591
(ft.lbf)
2157
(joules)

.44/40

The ballistic information based off three grain types for the .44 WCF muzzle velocity is 1,245 ft/s (200 gr), 1,190 ft/s (217 gr), and 750 ft/s (225 gr).

So say 200 grs, 1250 fps and say 10 grs

Bullet Weight:
200
(gr)
Bullet Velocity:
1250
(fps)
Powder Charge Weight:
10
(gr)
Firearm Weight:
7.2
(lbs)
Recoil Impulse
1.33
(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity
5.95
(fps)
Recoil Energy
3.96
(ft.lbf)

Mass:
200
(gr)
Velocity:
1250
(fps)
Energy:
694
(ft.lbf)
941
(joules)

.44 Magnum

Say 300 grs , 1250 fps, 15 grs (?)

Bullet Weight:
300
(gr)
Bullet Velocity:
1250
(fps)
Powder Charge Weight:
15
(gr)
Firearm Weight:
7.2
(lbs)
Recoil Impulse
2
(lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity
8.93
(fps)
Recoil Energy
8.92
(ft.lbf)

Mass:
300
(gr)
Velocity:
1250
(fps)
Energy:
1041
(ft.lbf)
1411
(joules)



Will continue in a moment.Looking for info on the .577 Eley Revolver cartridge

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (24/06/20 11:49 PM)


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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #342781 - 25/06/20 12:21 AM

500JRH with 440 grains at 1350fps
475 Linebaugh with 420 grains at 1350fps
With these cartridges you're in the range of 1700-1800 ft/lbs energy.

These are the standard for the 5-shot lightweight revolvers from Freedom Arms or from Huntington and the other custom wheel gun builders.
Finished guns weigh about 3-1/2 pounds.

--------------------
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: tinker]
      #342807 - 25/06/20 12:11 PM

Quote:

500JRH with 440 grains at 1350fps
475 Linebaugh with 420 grains at 1350fps
With these cartridges you're in the range of 1700-1800 ft/lbs energy.

These are the standard for the 5-shot lightweight revolvers from Freedom Arms or from Huntington and the other custom wheel gun builders.
Finished guns weigh about 3-1/2 pounds.




Quote:

The Original Howdah Pistol is a reproduction of the famous Auto & Burglar model made by Ithaca Company around 1920. This modern version features rifled barrels chambered for . 45LC/.
...
Product Specs.
Item Number REV/S640.410
Barrel Length 10.25'' Round
Caliber .45LC/410
Capacity 2
Weight 7.2 lbs

https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/specials/pedersoli-products/original-howdah-pistol.html




I was surprised by the weight of these Pedersoli Howdahs. Similar in weight to a full long arm game 12-bore shotgun.

Has anyone shot a .45/70 in a Thompson Contender or similar handgun? How does it perform? How manageable is the recoil?

Of course in a Howdah, it could be reloaded for lesser recoil.

--------------------
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...
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"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #342808 - 25/06/20 12:18 PM

Quote:



Has anyone shot a .45/70 in a Thompson Contender or similar handgun? How does it perform? How manageable is the recoil?

Of course in a Howdah, it could be reloaded for lesser recoil.




I've shot far beyond standard 45-70 loads in a contender.
45-70 is manageable.

That 45/410 SxS Howdah could be pretty cool with blown-out 9.3x74r brass. I wonder how well the action can take elevated loads.
Might just have to find out.

--------------------
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: tinker]
      #342816 - 25/06/20 02:37 PM

Need to include this here and incorporate in a post above.

Cartridges used for target shooting greater than /39 or 9mm need to have a competition which includes knocking over steel silhouette targets.

I forgot to include this in my howdah discussion, it MUST include knocking over steel silhouettes to have any change of being legal in S Aust to own a handgun greater than .38 / 9 mm, for a target shooting competition.

There is no other real class or category where a handgun can be owned.

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John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4278
Loc: Nevada
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #342817 - 25/06/20 03:04 PM

NitroX the 500JRH was put together by Jack Huntington for the purpose of having a relatively light and compact sidearm for use as self defense around dangerous game.

He's taken all sorts of massive bovine game with the 500JRH including Cape Buffalo. The cartridge works great from a 4-5/8" barreled holster gun.
It'll knock steel targets down with no problem. I've beat up a lot of steel with a lot of big bore revolvers. Get your steel and go.
For all it's worth, a 500 would be great on those big bastards up in the NT!

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1162
Loc: fla
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: tinker]
      #342940 - 01/07/20 11:55 AM

well i've gather up most of the peices for mine picked up a tight side lock hammer gun with damascus barrels and two 12 gage to 44 magnum 7" inserts gunna cut the barrels back to the inserts silver soder them in. the rent a 444 marlin reamer and shoot 444 magnum bp. nice long case could call it 429 express'. if i cut it right i will save the checkering since its a scant stock. done

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'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4278
Loc: Nevada
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: ducmarc]
      #342944 - 01/07/20 12:21 PM

You might save a lot of trouble by going Pedersoli and using 9.3x74r brass blown out to a straight case to reach the rifling from the case mouth with a bullet.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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