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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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karamoja
.275 member


Reged: 25/04/12
Posts: 77
Loc: Herefordshire, GB
H&H take down system?
      #342510 - 19/06/20 05:04 AM

Hello All,

Can any one point me in the right direction for pictures of the H&H whole barreled action take down system action from the stock? I have looked everywhere and can't find any. I am sure there were some on here at one point but searches have bee fruitless.
Also any advice or ideas would be welcome!
K


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yumastepside
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Reged: 25/10/15
Posts: 267
Loc: Tasmania Australia
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: karamoja]
      #342511 - 19/06/20 05:49 AM

Are you talking about the TD system used for their bolt rifles?

Roger

--------------------
none


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karamoja
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Reged: 25/04/12
Posts: 77
Loc: Herefordshire, GB
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: yumastepside]
      #342512 - 19/06/20 05:53 AM

Hi,
Yes. The whole barreled action which hooks into what would have been the rear action action piece which is screwed to the stock.
K


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yumastepside
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Reged: 25/10/15
Posts: 267
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: karamoja]
      #342513 - 19/06/20 06:37 AM

PM your Email address to me and I will send you what pics I have.

cheers

Roger

--------------------
none


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Major_Bonkers
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Reged: 22/05/20
Posts: 7
Loc: London, England
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: yumastepside]
      #342516 - 19/06/20 08:08 AM

I have an H&H takedown rifle in .375 which dates from 1965. If you want some pictures, I can oblige. As I'm a newbie here, I am not sure what the form is.

Let me know what pictures you want and I'll be happy to take photographs.


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 30936
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Major_Bonkers]
      #342522 - 19/06/20 12:03 PM

Major Bonkers (ha ha funny name) and Yuma,

Please send me the photos as well so I can post on this thread and another thread thanks.

Its good to build up illustrations of different techniques and features over time. For Wiki.Nitro !

Nitro AT NitroExpress dot com

Obviously fix up the email address. Typed that way so spam spiders don't pick it up.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (19/06/20 12:04 PM)


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karamoja
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Reged: 25/04/12
Posts: 77
Loc: Herefordshire, GB
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Major_Bonkers]
      #342546 - 20/06/20 01:41 AM

Hello Major
If it is the hook under the rear tang method which hooks in the whole action and barrel, I would like to seen images of those areas. it would be very helpful.
Many thanks, K


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Major_Bonkers
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Reged: 22/05/20
Posts: 7
Loc: London, England
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: karamoja]
      #342576 - 21/06/20 03:42 AM

Dear Mr. Karamoja - I see that you are in Hereford, and I am in London. The easiest thing would probably be to meet and show you.

They are not so much 'hooks' as two small prongs which slide into a corresponding sheath on the tang.

To be honest, the system is rather fiddly and does not substantially reduce the length of the rifle; it simply breaks down into the barrelled action section and the stock (and the QD telescopic sight). The Westley Richards takedown system is probably better.

I am going to try and post the images here, but I am not very confident that I shall be able to.


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Rockdoc
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Major_Bonkers]
      #342589 - 21/06/20 09:55 AM

I am reliably informed that H&H went to this system after experiencing headspace issues with the old system with standard threads. Mine is such a rifle. The newer H&H takedown Is a good replacement for the original type.

The WR takedown uses a square thread, I have been told What type of thread but canít remember. If I were to order a new takedown It would be a WR.

Edited by Rockdoc (21/06/20 09:57 AM)


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Major_Bonkers
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Reged: 22/05/20
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #342598 - 21/06/20 05:47 PM

When I was last in Hollands, being patronised by the gunroom staff, I compared the modern versions of the takedown with mine. They are now made with a much heavier barrel, which probably helps accuracy whilst, of course, making them more of a burden, leading to panting and hand-wobbles when you actually come to take the shot.

The modern versions come with beautiful walnut and engraving, which really makes them too valuable to use properly in my opinion.

I noticed with my rifle that some of the engraving is a bit dodgy. More serious was that the QD scope mounts were not properly aligned with the barrel - someone in the factory had obviously had them lying about and slapped them on without making any further effort. It was not a major issue, but it introduced the irritation of knowing that it was not going to hit the spot unless shot at the zeroed range. I went back to Hollands to ask about a new pair of mounts and was smoothly quoted £6,000 + 20% VAT; going to a local gunmaker, he made up some new ones at a third of the quoted price (and I still thought it too much).

It does lead me to think that, beautiful as these guns and rifles are, and effortlessly superior and dismissive as the 24 year olds running the gunroom are, buying these things new just marks you down as a mug. Nor does the price-gouging equate to profit: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00661140/filing-history

I am afraid that I haven't worked out how to post the images, but I would be happy to e-mail them.


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Ahmed577
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Reged: 13/06/13
Posts: 215
Loc: Western Australia
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Major_Bonkers]
      #342604 - 21/06/20 06:44 PM

Holland Boss and Purdey have always given me what I want. Cost I will not live long enough to placate. The grandkids will.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Major_Bonkers]
      #342606 - 21/06/20 06:57 PM

Quote:

I went back to Hollands to ask about a new pair of mounts and was smoothly quoted £6,000 + 20% VAT; going to a local gunmaker, he made up some new ones at a third of the quoted price (and I still thought it too much).




That's A$15,000 to A$18,000 just for mounts! What are you complaining about?

No wonder Rigby is doing so well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Major_Bonkers
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Reged: 22/05/20
Posts: 7
Loc: London, England
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: NitroX]
      #342617 - 21/06/20 09:04 PM

Well, Ahmed, it's worth thinking about what you are actually buying when you sign on the dotted line for a bolt-action rifle from one of your named gunsmiths.

The barrelled action will have come from FZH or Mayfair Engineering. The engraving will almost certainly have been outwork. The stocking may be done in-house but, as I understand matters, Boss outsources all its work.

What you are being sold is some vision of gnomes painstakingly manufacturing your hand-built rifle, and what you are getting is a very nicely-finished after-market Mauser 98 action. The one area where it should shine is fitting.
I do not believe that the position is substantially different with double rifles. Most of these, I strongly suspect, come from Mayfair, but in any case the actions are coming off CNC machines rather than some old fart in Birmingham patiently filing down lumps of metal.

All of these elements are reproducible by an individual buying his own action in the white and then hunting down his own engraver and stocker/ fitter. Your finished product won't cost anything like as much as a New Holland/ Purdey/ Boss, and nor will it have the same aftermarket value, but it won't depreciate as much either. It ought to be just as accurate and good to shoot, though.

An engraver that I can recommend is Andy Miles, who works for all of the London gunsmiths. I use a stocker in Poland called Arek at Top Gun.

In the alternative, you can go to someone like Paul Roberts, of J. Roberts & Son. He used to own both Jeffery and Rigby, so he knows what he is doing. You will get a Jeffery or Rigby equivalent, but without the magic name engraved on the barrel and - at a guess - at at least half the cost.

While on the subject, you should also look at the accounts - using the link that I posted above - for the London gunsmiths. Purdeys and Hollands are losing money-hand-over fist - arguably this makes their rifles very good value for money, as they are being sold at a loss! - and Boss looks to be in a particularly hard place (I understand that it has recently changed ownership, again).

I would be very cautious about entering into a long-term contract to buy a rifle from any of your named lot. At a minimum, I would insist that any money paid by me was paid into trust for my rifle and not intermingled with the companies' own funds. I would also insist in paying in arrears.

The two companies which do seem to be doing very well are Rigby and (in Birmingham) Westley Richards.

Finally, I would question just how much your grandchildren will benefit from your collection. On the assumption that you bought them new, you will have already suffered some pretty severe depreciation. So far as I can see, both Purdeys and Hollands are very shy about the cost of their (new) bolt-actioned rifles, but I would suspect somewhere around £30,000 + VAT. Big bore rifles in the northern hemisphere typically do not get a lot of use, so it is possible, with luck, to pick up good rifles second-hand at a good price: my H&H .375 takedown cost me approximately £7,000, and my Jeffery .404 a scarcely believable £1,100.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 30936
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Major_Bonkers]
      #342618 - 21/06/20 09:19 PM

Quote:

Finally, I would question just how much your grandchildren will benefit from your collection. On the assumption that you bought them new, you will have already suffered some pretty severe depreciation. So far as I can see, both Purdeys and Hollands are very shy about the cost of their (new) bolt-actioned rifles, but I would suspect somewhere around £30,000 + VAT. Big bore rifles in the northern hemisphere typically do not get a lot of use, so it is possible, with luck, to pick up good rifles second-hand at a good price: my H&H .375 takedown cost me approximately £7,000, and my Jeffery .404 a scarcely believable £1,100.




Bonkers, you might want to do some searches on Ahmed577's firearms. There are a significant number of posts on his commissioned firearms. Many of the images will have been posted under my account.

It would be nice to see images of the two firearms you mention.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 30936
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: NitroX]
      #342619 - 21/06/20 09:21 PM

I believe I got an email from you? I go and look for it right now.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: NitroX]
      #342620 - 21/06/20 09:53 PM

Holland & Holland Take down system, .375 H&H Mag, 1965

































--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ahmed577
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Reged: 13/06/13
Posts: 215
Loc: Western Australia
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: NitroX]
      #342621 - 21/06/20 09:54 PM

Bonkers by name bonkers by behaviour. I have bought London best bolts new for under 20000aus dollars and doubles for under 55000 new. 100 years ago it was said if you bought a London best you were mad. If we people donít buy them new there wonít be an opportunity for people that canít afford to buy new to buy them at 20,40 60,80, 100 years old. You are not right to say what financial benefit my grandkids or some one elseís may miss. I will leave what I love and have a passion for. It is sad that money should drive ones passion. I have new westley richards guns that are under a quarter now of their new price. Donít apply your logic to others who simply love guns. There is a lot more to life than money. I might add I buy my guns to hunt with and share with like minded friends. Some of those occasions could never be valued in money.

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Major_Bonkers
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Reged: 22/05/20
Posts: 7
Loc: London, England
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Ahmed577]
      #342626 - 21/06/20 10:25 PM

Well, apologies, it certainly was not my intention either to be rude or to teach anyone to suck eggs and, re-reading my post, I do see that it comes across rather as 'and another thing...' . It was unintended, and I apologise for it.

The root problem that we have in the UK is that it is increasingly difficult to own firearms legally, and this has knocked on into the gunsmiths. There has been a great hollowing-out of expertise, as the domestic market is so small as to be effectively non-existent. Our gunsmiths effectively produce rifles for the Americans, the Russians being under an arms embargo and the Chinks not interested. That said, I also think that we are living through a new golden age of double-rifle gunsmithing; what Rigby and Westley Richards, in particular, are producing at the moment is better than anything made before. That is largely down to CNC manufacturing, but the engraving is also excellent. Unfortunately, the engraving is so good and valuable that it makes taking the rifle on an expedition rather dangerous, as one risks substantially devaluing the rifle!

I have considerable doubts about taking a standard M98 action, tarting it up, and selling it as a 'London Best' for silly money. This is particularly so as Mauser has re-started production and will sell you a rifle in .375, .416, or .450. Is there really much point buying the same thing, with the addition of some nice wood and attractive engraving, for the huge sums demanded by Holland or Purdey? I suppose that the answer is yes, if you want to hang it on your wall, and no, if you want to use it.

I am glad that the H&H photos arrived. My Jeffery is rather uninteresting - a standard Mauser action, and no engraving. I am fairly sure that it dates to the Paul Roberts period of ownership. I was supposed to be using both rifles next week tickling buffalo in South Africa. The only particularly interesting thing about it is that the previous owner was obviously a bit of a short-arse, as the stock is so short that when I bring it up, my nose touches the thumb of my right hand!


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Ahmed577
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Major_Bonkers]
      #342628 - 21/06/20 10:33 PM

Thankyou and I look forward to more interaction. I respect your point of view and indeed many of my best mates sit with you.

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karamoja
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Ahmed577]
      #342629 - 21/06/20 10:36 PM

I understand all the sentiments at play here. My interest in this method was the financial one! It is achievable for little money! I sadly do not have deep pockets otherwise I would be driving up the M5 as we speak to WR. Ideally I would like to copy the the square thread not sure how to convert a commercial fn action to the square thread though other from a new made that way action. I will talk to my Smith though. I do still feel that the whole barreled action removal is the more repeatable for a accuracy though? Major how is accuracy affected by the take down operation?
K


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: karamoja]
      #342631 - 21/06/20 10:57 PM

A second email. I'm not sure who sent which one.




























--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: H&H take down system? [Re: NitroX]
      #342634 - 21/06/20 11:22 PM

Interesting tang attachment - as well as the interesting break at the tang attachment point.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Major_Bonkers
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Reged: 22/05/20
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Loc: London, England
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #342649 - 22/06/20 05:59 AM

Those are my photographs, Mr. NitroX! (Apologies for the dirty fingernail.)

Mr. Karamojo - honestly, I do not use the rifle as much as I ought to. Firstly, it's expensive to use and secondly, after (extensive) zeroing of it and practice on the bench, I was left with a huge bruise which stretched from the bottom of my ribs to my shoulder, so I do all of my target shooting - which I only do to keep my eye in, rather than be a bore about it - with a .308 nowadays. I've got a photograph of that bruise, somewhere. I'm becoming a bit of an old fart.

As for accuracy, it is certainly accurate out to 100 yards, by which I mean a 1" group. That's repeatable - ie. dismantling the rifle and putting it back together and taking off the sights and putting them back on. I am fairly sure that it would hold its accuracy beyond that range, but I have only used it in the mopani bush rather than the open veldt, so I haven't felt the need to zero it beyond that. Pierre van der Walt has it as good out to 300 yards with the right bullets, but that doesn't strike me as particularly sporting and, I suspect, you are probably going to get quite a lot (>18") of bullet drop and - more importantly - the actual energy delivered at that range would preclude its use on anything other than thin-skinned antelope.

In short - for accuracy, and given that it's a big bore heavy-hitter rather than a precision 'tack driver' - the takedown is absolutely fine.

If you are ever in the High Wycombe area, I suggest that you look up Lee Butler, ex-WR and now set up on his own, and have a chat with him. He made the new QD scope mounts for me. Alternatively, Paul Roberts, mentioned above. I would be nervous about using a gunsmith who did not have previous experience of safari rifles: you will be paying to educate him.

I am afraid that I am not able to help you further in relation to converting round and square threads.

The only other piece of advice that I would give is that it is much cheaper to buy a rifle with the elements that you want rather than to build a rifle with the elements that you want. A friend of mine has just bought a (new) takedown Mauser in .243 which he raves about and, frankly, if I was you, I would think that that might be an avenue worth following up. Or just keep a beady eye out on gun sale and auction websites and wait. It'll turn up sooner or later. And in the current economy, it's likely to be very good value.


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karamoja
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Reged: 25/04/12
Posts: 77
Loc: Herefordshire, GB
Re: H&H take down system? [Re: Major_Bonkers]
      #342692 - 23/06/20 01:05 AM

Major Bonkers,

Thank you for going to the trouble of posting pictures! It's much appreciated. You are probably right about buying something complete, but I love building rifles, it's an affliction I have!
I have met Lee in the past a talented chap and excellent rifle smith.

Many thanks, K


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