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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Robtattoo
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Reged: 09/06/20
Posts: 6
Loc: Middle Tennessee, USA
Can anyone help with this old '98 origins?
      #342092 - 11/06/20 12:15 AM

Hi folks, first time poster here!

I recently acquired a beautiful old sporting Mauser in 9x57 & I'm trying to research a little of it's history.
So far I've ascertained that it is indeed a '98 large ring action & that the load range data on the side of the front ring dates it to pre 1901. My best guess at an age range is 1899-1901.

It was rebored (or possibly rebarreled) from 7.92mm at a later date & the Suhl 'Crown over N' proof mark leads me to believe that this work was done post 1950?

There is a signature inscribed on the bottom flat of the barrel, beneath the stock & I think it reads "Shüler" then possibly Karl or Kurt (my German cursive is't what it used to be....) & I'm assuming by it's comparatively crude nature, it's an owner & not a gunsmith.

There are a bunch of what seem to be random letters, numbers, possibly a word & possibly other proof marks under the action & behind the recoil lug & a recurring serial number on all metal parts (except, oddly, the magazine box, floorplate & trigger housing)

I would assume the original makers marks, factory or possibly Imperial markings would've been on top of the front ring & lost during the dovetail cut for a scope mount

I was really hoping to try & discover the origin of this fine gun. If anyone has any pointers to deciphering the random markings or any hints as to who Mr. Schüler is/was I would really appreciate it!


View images by opening the weblink in a new tabb, ie right click and open image in new tab. Images too large to display n the forums, NitroX edit:

https://i.imgur.com/PyuOh5c.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yBGFnKg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/96As5Ew.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Y09QxGd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oJDqewV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/s1ZwaHq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/URy0TvL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/55V68mP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/i7fbojY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3af0D1K.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hHVntGM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gE3mxkf.jpg

Edited by NitroX (11/06/20 06:10 AM)

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2106
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: Robtattoo]
      #342094 - 11/06/20 01:35 AM

Cottage industry Mausers were very common in German History from after both WW1 and later after WW2 also.
Every county had their own proof house which had to comply with National proofs, but then the maker had their proof station too. So proof marks on Sporting Mausers are prolific, and there are ways to track them all down, but I don't have the resources to do it myself.

Keep in mind, the old bore size from pre-1905 was .318" After 1905 all military Mausers went to .323" BUT not all Sporting Mausers did until the late 1960s. .318 was as common as 323" for hunters in German for over 60 years!
Your barrel was made originally as a sporting barrel, but CHECK to see what the groove diameter is. THAT'S VITAL.

If you have one with the old 318" bore it's not a problem that you can't overcome. PPU and DWM as well as Seller and Bellot all make ammo for the old 318" size to this day, and if you hand-load you can buy them from several manufacturers in other places. No US Company makes .318 diameter bullets, but there are several importers.

You rifle is a REAL hunters rifle. If it were mine I would be out killing deer, elk and antelope with it for sure.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: szihn]
      #342096 - 11/06/20 01:52 AM

I see the OP noted it is a 9x57, not 8x57.
That is great, however you should still slug the bore with a pure lead slug, poke it out and measure the outside (major) diameter across the projections (from the grooves) to see what the dia. is. These were made from about .355" to .358".
If a .358" bullet will fit into a fired case, then you can use .358's for your loading. If the bullet does not fit, you will need to buy smaller dia. bullets for loading this rifle, or have a gun smith open up the neck with a chucking reamer or other reamer.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Robtattoo
.224 member


Reged: 09/06/20
Posts: 6
Loc: Middle Tennessee, USA
Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: szihn]
      #342098 - 11/06/20 02:03 AM

Wow. Not sure how or why the photos ended up so massive! :O

I slugged the bore as soon as I got it home (pure lead .454 round ball) and the groove measurement is actually .358 Making me wonder why it wasn't rebored to the more common .355-.356 for a 9mm.....

I have a couple of boxes of the Kynoch 245gn 9x57 ammunition, although I'm loathe to shoot it up, as scarce & expensive as it is these days! I also have 20 reloads (with load data) & a bunch of modified 9.3x57 brass to load myself, as soon as my dies arrive.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
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Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: Robtattoo]
      #342107 - 11/06/20 06:13 AM

Quote:

Wow. Not sure how or why the photos ended up so massive! :O



My modern digital cameras take much larger pictures than needed to display on the internet. My SLR takes images maybe 20 maybe 50 times too large! If not more ...

The usual size I resize to, for a 'landscape' orientated image is 1024 pixels to view on most screens.

Some forums do this automatically now. NE like its subject matter is still using 'vintage' forums (ie the version) !

I have edited your post to make the images web addresses and the images can be viewed by opening in a new tab. Makes this thread workable for the time being.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Robtattoo
.224 member


Reged: 09/06/20
Posts: 6
Loc: Middle Tennessee, USA
Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: NitroX]
      #342108 - 11/06/20 07:05 AM

Thank you sir, much appreciated!

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1770
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: Robtattoo]
      #342120 - 11/06/20 08:48 PM

This rifle was proofed at the Suhl proofhouse in 1912 as the bore/land (notgroove/bullet!)diameter is marked as 7.8 mm, but the service load info is still given as 2.75 gramm smokeless rifle powder and a steel jacketed bullet. The CROWN + crown/N marks indicate proof using the 4000 atm special proof powder, according to the proof rule of July 23, 1893. The rifle was proofed only once for the 8x57 I cartridge. As it is rebored to 9x57, it lacks the mandatory reproof . So the reboring was probably done about 1920, when the „military“ 8x57 was prohibited and proofhouses were not operating due to revolutionary turmoil.
As the worker’s marks under the receiver show, the action is a Gewehr 98 one of military production, smuggled out of the Erfurt arsenal. A „grey market“ action, sometimes encountered at that time.
The crudely scratched name on the barrel is probably of a former owner. No reputable gunmaker would have signed his gun with such scribbling.
The rifle was once mounted with claw mounts. As the scope was not „liberated“ too in 1945, the now useless bases were removed and the front base dovetail in the receiver ring filled in.

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: kuduae]
      #342131 - 11/06/20 10:43 PM

She might have a few scars Robtattoo, but certainly can still do her part when asked!
It would be a real labour of love to restore her back to her original condition with claw mounts & period scope; I guess that's up to you, but I believe it would be remiss if you didn't - even if you took your time to do so, it would be well worth it.
Lovely pick up matey

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: kuduae]
      #342133 - 11/06/20 11:57 PM

One of our excellent and informed German members, with extensive reference collections, comes to the fore again!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Robtattoo
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Reged: 09/06/20
Posts: 6
Loc: Middle Tennessee, USA
Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: NitroX]
      #342139 - 12/06/20 12:57 AM

Kudae, thank you! That's an amazing insight into its history & exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: Robtattoo]
      #342140 - 12/06/20 01:06 AM

The .358" groove diameter is a great find, due to the availability of that dia. bullets.
The 250gr. Hornady is a good bullet for this round. The 225gr. spitzer or spire point might suit for an all-round bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Robtattoo
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Reged: 09/06/20
Posts: 6
Loc: Middle Tennessee, USA
Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: DarylS]
      #342151 - 12/06/20 04:43 AM

I already have a few hundred Speer 220s on hand for my .358 Winchester, but before I get to excitable, I'm going to try fireforming an 8x57 case & mike the inside neck diameter, just to be sure. I know I can buy .356 bullets from Buffalo or Hawke if need be. I'd hate to damage the chamber if it happens to have a tight throat.

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DarylS
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Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: Robtattoo]
      #342153 - 12/06/20 07:31 AM

Yes, still best to check a .358" bullet in fired case.
Necked up straight, then sized for a bullet while keeping a false shoulder for headspace is a very good idea. That way zero stretching takes place on fire forming. As well, reworked 8x57mm brass will also result in thinner necks most likely rather than sizing down larger mouth cases, which thickens case necks.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Robtattoo
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Reged: 09/06/20
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Loc: Middle Tennessee, USA
Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: DarylS]
      #342166 - 12/06/20 12:16 PM

I just fired one of the terrifyingly old, green with verdigris reloads into a log & the neck ID measured .3586
To say I'm thrilled by this & all of the history provided & discovered is a HUGE understatement.
I've never owned a rifle with this history or provenance before & to think that I'll actually be adding to its story is thrilling to me!
I will be hunting with it this year in my adopted home of Tennessee (I moved here from England, 11 years ago) and in Wyoming. I hope I can do the old girl proud.

Thank you to everyone for all the help, advice, tips & pointers. I can't believe I never discovered this forum before now!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: Robtattoo]
      #342178 - 12/06/20 03:07 PM

Quote:

I've never owned a rifle with this history or provenance before & to think that I'll actually be adding to its story is thrilling to me!



Yes it is nice to own a firearm with history and fondle it and shoot and hunt with it. Adding to its history. I like the idea of adding a scroll to a hole in the butt recording its known history, and adding notes to it, and leaving space for future entries.

Quote:


I will be hunting with it this year in my adopted home of Tennessee (I moved here from England, 11 years ago) and in Wyoming. I hope I can do the old girl proud.

Thank you to everyone for all the help, advice, tips & pointers. I can't believe I never discovered this forum before now!



Thanks for the kind comments. NE is a 'vintage gem' of a forum, a smaller forum, with a dedicated smaller group of regular knowledgeable members. More members participating is more than appreciated!

I hope you can show us more of this rifle and your use of it. Show us some of the targets, and some of the deer or other species you hunt with it one day. Tennessee and Wyoming, they are certainly different from the UK.

I will see if I can edit your photos and load them up on my server show they can be displayed on this thread.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: NitroX]
      #342223 - 13/06/20 03:32 PM

























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
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Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: Robtattoo]
      #342245 - 14/06/20 01:51 AM

Quote:

I just fired one of the terrifyingly old, green with verdigris reloads into a log & the neck ID measured .3586




That is wonderful news. Regular .358 bullets sometimes run 1/2 thou. undersized, so perfect & fine if they don't.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tom_H
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Re: Can anyone help with this old '98 origins? [Re: DarylS]
      #342439 - 17/06/20 02:29 AM

Nice find. I patched the receiver of a commercial Dutch 95 as it was missing the original scope in claw mounts. After a trip to the engraver it was brought back to original.
With the matting on the front ring and a fresh blacking, that dovetail would practically disappear.
What a terrific woods rifle.

Good shooting.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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