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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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EDELWEISS
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Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns
      #342030 - 09/06/20 10:50 PM

Im just wondering if there was a muzzle loading Ball and Shot gun. If not a specific rifled design, were there any intended to be used like we think of as a Paradox?

It seems like the idea would have been just as good before cartridges. Ive shot plenty of large bore smooth bore guns (think Brown Bess, etc), typically those were never meant to be accurate beyond "minute of man" at say 70yds; but at the same time there were pretty amazing muzzle loading rifles of the same period (the Jaegers and Bakers comes to mind).

I realize "Paradox" and "Explora" are company names; but the concept is sound whether cartridge or muzzle loaded

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342031 - 09/06/20 11:13 PM

Choke boring is for the most part native to breech loading guns and rifles.
A paradox-type gun needs to have choke, otherwise it's just a cylinder bored ball gun.

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DarylS
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342049 - 10/06/20 02:37 AM

Quote:

Im just wondering if there was a muzzle loading Ball and Shot gun.



The answer to that is yes. There were ball and shot guns, in the muzzle loading era.
Of smoothbore, but heavier built breeches, barrels and stocks than typical fowlers.

Long time friend of mine, Wil Tompson of Smithers, now gone, had one in 6 bore, having 36" tubes seems to me IIRC
. When re-furbished by H&H in the 70's, they reamed it out to 5 bore to turn the rough tubes into like-new again.
Wil actually won a turkey or two with it, shooting trap. 2oz. shot and 120gr. FG IIRC. A light "square" load, that shot well.

--------------------
Daryl


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: DarylS]
      #342059 - 10/06/20 06:43 AM

To add, although I haven't seen an example I've heard of old pre-cartridge era jug choked guns.
A jug choked gun could pass patched ball and also offer choking for shot loads

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EDELWEISS
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: tinker]
      #342065 - 10/06/20 09:45 AM

Thanks guys. I know the general consensus is that smoothbore muskets were inaccurate, perhaps intentionally so, in a large part for ease of reloading; but I have trouble believing a gentleman of means would accept something so pedestrian as a 75 cal musket with a 69 caliber ball, nor would he always want a rifle, when a compromise was possible. Later when rifles were more common in the percussion period, something Paradoz-ish seems likely, even as a regulated set of smoothbores.

Anyway it seems like something Id want

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342075 - 10/06/20 01:06 PM

There have been regulated smooth bore doubles for ball before cartridges and through the paradox era.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: tinker]
      #342080 - 10/06/20 05:53 PM

I think this thread is a bit confused and going at cross purposes a bit.

1. A paradox or explora is a breech loading firearm which was choked and the choke or one choke at least, had a small amount of rifling at the muzzle. As such it was able to shoot reasonably accurately a ball or possibly a slug, or be used with shot, without the pattern being too spread or erratic.

2. The question was, were there muzzle loaders which were doing this, ie choked and rifled at the muzzle?

3. Smooth bore firearms, muzzle loading, capable of shot and ball? Of course, why wouldn't they be capable of shooting a ball or a charge of shot. This is the most common firearm before the invention of rifling.

The US Revolution was in part fought by US patriots fighting with their more accurate but slower reloading rifles and the Brits with smooth bore quicker reloading muskets.

The ability to not be able to use shot well happened with the rifled barrels.

4. Were some of these smooth bored muzzle loaders also choked? Again these are not paradoxes, as no rifling.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: NitroX]
      #342081 - 10/06/20 06:09 PM

Just wanted to point out, a paradox has rifled chokes. Paradox like, is rifled chokes, but perhaps not by H&H, eg the explora.

Isn't there a n evolution for shot and ball guns.

1. Smooth bore no choke.

2. Smooth bore, choked.

2b. Smooth bore, choked, regulated.

3. Smooth bore, rifled choke(s).

A different question.

For eg US states which have shotgun only deer seasons, isn't a paradox an ideal choice? I assume they are legal.

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EDELWEISS
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: NitroX]
      #342089 - 10/06/20 10:45 PM

Thanks for the clarification.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342093 - 11/06/20 12:28 AM

NitroX yes, paradox is legal in shotgun states.

Edelweiss has been mislead by a guy who is marketing his smooth bore shotgun conversions as Paradox guns.
Those conversions are basically shotguns that have had rifle sights added and which have been refinished.

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DarylS
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: tinker]
      #342095 - 11/06/20 01:44 AM

Ahh - I see now. Pape, an American gun maker, patented or attempted to patent a screw-on choke for single barreled smoothbores in about 1855. Likely on or for a muzzleloading fowler at that time.
There is a big difference between military guns and the way they were loaded, to actually working up a fairly accurate load for as smoothbore with round balls.
Side by sides or singles, loaded with patched round balls do very well for accuracy to about 75 yards. Indeed, on our trail-walk, we have a goose target at 109yards (100meters) and with his Pennsylvania 20 bore Flint flowler, my bro has never missed that accursed target.
One other fellow in our club has only his flintlock smoothbore, yet he is never the low score on the trail shooting against rifles. He loads a .020" patched .595" ball with 85gr. 3F in a Pennsylvania fowler he built.
The bore on the gun is of course smooth and of .620". Taylor (bro) loads a .600" ball with a .020" patch - so it's snug. No rear sight, either, just a blade on the front of both guns.
I have successfully loaded for a shortened (26" tubesIIRC) breech loading 12 bore with naked balls held in the base cups from AA trap loads & powder charges up to 190gr.(7drams)
Regulation was very good as well and I was able to hit consistently, a 12" square plate hung at 100 meters, offhand, rights, then lefts, rights then left again. 4 in a row with the 7 dram charge. The light 7 1/2 or 8 pound gun kicked a bit.
Of course, with no chokes, it did not shoot shot very well and I never worked on that, however it did give slighlty better than cylinder bore patterns to 30yards with the use of shot cups.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: DarylS]
      #342101 - 11/06/20 02:20 AM

To answer the title of this thread, the answer would most likely, be NO - no such thing as a paradox prior to ctg, guns and most likely not in the Lefaucheux guns of the 1860's, either.
Paradox or rifled chokes being a British 'thing', I think Jones type actions of later than 1875. Just a guess.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342104 - 11/06/20 05:39 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the clarification.



No offence meant.

It has been interesting to read about choking on muzzle loaders.

I think for shot, not a problem. Just need to get wads past.

For a ball obviously it has to fit through. The 'patching' may have some give.

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EDELWEISS
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: NitroX]
      #342112 - 11/06/20 09:19 AM

Hahaha, if you meant to offend me youll have to try harder. Guys Im here to gather knowledge. I very much do appreciate the info provided.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342118 - 11/06/20 08:27 PM

Quote:

No offence meant.



Quote:

if you meant to offend me youll have to try harder.



What an "ass" ....

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John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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EDELWEISS
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: NitroX]
      #342127 - 11/06/20 10:17 PM

Quote:

What an "ass" ....



Thanks for noticing bro. I spend a lot of time in the gym to keep my ass looking nice


Seriously Im asssssking questions because I want to "know", and as Ive posted in other threads, Im finding (too often) that info from sellers isnt always 100% spot on.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342134 - 11/06/20 11:58 PM

Glad for the humorous reply. What this site is about. Fun. And knowledge as well. And hopefully sometimes ffffing good adventures.

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John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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TH44
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: NitroX]
      #342162 - 12/06/20 10:17 AM

Back to the original question

only H&H made "Paradox" guns/rifles

It held the patent for choke/rifling at the last 2" of bore

When the patent expired others i.e. WR Explora and others used the principles for rifled bore/shot guns

Bore rifles and s smooth bore guns existed before cartridge arms

The jug choke was used in the conversions of percussion to cartridge arms
I have a WW Greener converted 4 bore with such a "Jug" choke

TH44

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Huvius
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: TH44]
      #342169 - 12/06/20 12:49 PM

I am sure that a true Fosbery type paradox or explora/fauneta was a development of the breech loading shotgun.
However, I am wondering, if a soft cast ball or slug, sized to slip past such rifling (bore diameter) would obturate upon firing that the effect would be the same in a muzzle loading paradox.
Such a projectile, once passed the rifled choke, would simply fall down the bore and wouldn't stay pressed upon the powder charge very well.
Now, if one had a projectile that was sized to the groove of the choke (bore of the smooth portion of the barrel) and pressed past the rifled choke imparting the rifling onto the bullet, then I could see it working to some extent but there is no way to insure that the rifling imparted onto the bullet going down would in any way line up to the rifling on the way out.

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DarylS
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: Huvius]
      #342211 - 13/06/20 01:57 AM

Forsyth wrote than many sportsmen, who had SxS bore rifles made in England (1840's-1860's), found they had rifling twists that would not support heavy loads needed for the beasts of India and that the balls stripped in the rifling. This rendered them no more accurate "than a common smoothbore", thus they loaded them heavily, got close and "killed by the smashing blow of the ball." - or some such prose.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Heelerau
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: DarylS]
      #342836 - 27/06/20 07:52 AM

Some sportsmen found large smoothbore ball guns worked fine at the ver short ranges that they hunted dangerous game, as ball stripped over the rifling at that time with the massive powder charges used. Forsythe to correct that, developed his style of rifling which was wide grooves, ver narrow lands and ver slow twist, say 1 in 110inches, just enough to stabiliize a ball over longer distances. Some of us here have rifles with such rifling and have found them to shoot well.
I suspect the paradox gun was a breech loading development. In the good old days I am sure hunters may have loaded their muzzle loading ball guns with both shot in one barrel and ball in the other, especially when hunting large moggys.

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Edited by Heelerau (27/06/20 07:54 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: Heelerau]
      #342847 - 27/06/20 04:36 PM

Just to revisit something.

Shot through a paradox?

So are shotgun patterns fine fired through the short length of rifling in a paradox?

Finer shot, say size 8?

Or SGs, .33 ?

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Marrakai
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Re: Did Paradox guns exist before cartridge guns [Re: NitroX]
      #342849 - 27/06/20 06:40 PM

John:
Dunno about #8, but #6 usually throws a good cylinder-bore pattern from a nitro paradox.
The 1910-12 Holland & Holland catalogue used to be available through a resource page somewhere on these forums.
There are diagrams of the patterns shot during the trials included there.

Nah.... just looked. Only for the 16-bore, and that looks contrived.
Maybe its in Greener's tome?

Hmm. Found a table of right & left barrel pattern data in the "Col. Fosbery and the Paradox Gun" article that accompanied the 1973 reprint of the H&H catalogue.
That will have to do!

Number of #6 pellets in 30-inch circle at 40 yds
right: 206 left: 194
right: 179 left: 209
right: 220 left: 170
This was with the BP loads, not nitro.
Patterns were described as very even, and better than cylinder.

The article further describes the following at 50 yards:
right: 130 left: 126
as being equal to a first-rate cylinder at 40 yds.

...and at 60 yards:
right: 113 left: 117
to equal a moderate cylinder pattern at 40 yds.

Seems fine to me!

Ha! Yet another edit.
Just found the Paradox shot patterns in the 1900 H&H Catalogue, page 26.
They look contrived too, though...

--------------------
Marrakai
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Edited by Marrakai (27/06/20 07:04 PM)

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