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themauserkid
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10.75x61 Mauser
      #340523 - 29/04/20 01:12 PM

I recently purchased a Stützen that ended up being chambered in a completely different caliber than advertised. While waiting for proper chamber casting material to arrive I made a wax cast of the chamber today. It appears to be a 10.75x61mm Haenel, DWM case number 523. I’m hoping to get any more possible information on the development or use of this cartridge. I’ve dug around and have yet to find another rifle mentioned in this caliber, if you know of any I would love to compare notes.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340530 - 29/04/20 04:21 PM

As you likely know, Mauser had a 10.75 X 68 that was also used by Steyr in their Mannlicher Schoenauer (a very rare option for the MS). The .404 Jefferey is described below as 10.75 X 73:











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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #340536 - 29/04/20 10:46 PM

Thank you for those, I had no idea any MS were chambered for x68, that is very neat! This Stützen is however a 1908 Oberndorf action, not a MS. The cartridge is a .470 rim and the case dimensions seem to fall on DWM case 523.

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340537 - 29/04/20 10:54 PM

Here are some pictures of the subject Stützen


Or not, I don’t have a photo host

Edited by themauserkid (29/04/20 10:59 PM)


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85lc
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340538 - 29/04/20 11:33 PM

Very interesting Please post a picture of your rifle.

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RB


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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: 85lc]
      #340539 - 30/04/20 12:58 AM

























[img]https://up.picr.de/38414073hu.jpeg[/img]













[img]https://up.picr.de/38413981qq.jpeg[/img]







--------------------
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.
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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: 85lc]
      #340540 - 30/04/20 01:03 AM

Check out municion.org for cartridge dimensions and a picture: https://municion.org/

Looks like it headspaces on the case mouth.

--------------------
Jim


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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340541 - 30/04/20 01:12 AM

Thank you Lancaster, much appreciated!

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340542 - 30/04/20 01:13 AM

here it is



no time just now but the case is similar to the 10,75x57, having a shoulder but case mouth helps a lot.

great find and better than the 11,2x60 Schüler you were looking for. the first rifle I ever seen for this cartridge.
wish it would be mine

Eduard Kettner start as a mail order house in Köln but had a work shop in Suhl than because it was a must have to be seen serious.
I have no doubt this rifle was made there. of course there a re a lot of similaritys with other rifles from Suhl in this time frame because such man like stockmaker, engravers working for everyone there.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340543 - 30/04/20 01:22 AM

I don't see the shoulder.



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Jim


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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340545 - 30/04/20 01:31 AM

Have you slugged the bore? What is the 10,2mm under the barrel?

--------------------
Jim


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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340547 - 30/04/20 01:35 AM

It is extremely slight, perhaps less than a 10.75x57 shoulder. You can see it as a light shadow in my wax cast, easier to see in hand but still extremely slight. I will be able to provide a better look at the chamber when the material comes in.

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340548 - 30/04/20 01:41 AM

10.2 would be the land dimension, not the bore. A cursory check appears to be a .423 bore, I’ll know better soon.

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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340549 - 30/04/20 02:12 AM

I would not trust head spacing on such a slight shoulder. Slugging the bore will give you the bore AND the land dimension.

10.2mm = .4015". That is not the bore or land dimension of any 10.75 cartridge.

--------------------
Jim


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340550 - 30/04/20 02:19 AM

Quote:

It is extremely slight, perhaps less than a 10.75x57 shoulder. You can see it as a light shadow in my wax cast, easier to see in hand but still extremely slight. I will be able to provide a better look at the chamber when the material comes in.




How does such a case headspace with such a non existent shoulder and being rimless? Perhaps a reason it is so rare?

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John aka NitroX

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DarylS
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: NitroX]
      #340553 - 30/04/20 03:16 AM

It headspaces on the case mouth and tiny shoulder combined.
Appears cases can be made from '06 brass, trimmed to the appropriate length, exactly, of course.

I agree John - one of the reasons for it's obscurity, I'm sure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: DarylS]
      #340561 - 30/04/20 04:32 AM

CIP gives 10,45mm for land and 10,75 mm for grooves with the 10,75x68,
but the only suviving rimmed 10,75 in the CIP list - the 10,75x49R Gründig have 10,20mm land and 10,75 mm groove so it was not completly unusual.

the rimmed cartridges and the rimless like the 10,75 x 57 and the 10,75x63 were all loaded with the same 350 grains bullet.
I would say the 10,2mm stamp on the barrel indicate that a gauge of 10,2 mm diameter pass the barrel in the proof house. so lands diameter actually could be more close to 10,30 mm.

the 10,75x57 was not a big success than but imho, it works by a combination of the little shoulder and the case mouth. I have such a rifle,dont make thousends of shoots because lack of time in general but had never an issue when firing it.
the shoulder is there and more to feel with the finger tips than to see with the eyes.I dont have much more informations about the 10,75x61 Haenel other than it exits but will ask friends who have maybe some stuff. would be good to see the factory ballistic to know what to load for.
I believe it came later than the other 10,75 mm cartridges and was offered only by C.G.Haenel in Suhl probably in Haenel made Mauser 98 hunting rifles, the Haenel M 1900 and 1909 also the older M 88 hunting rifle.
In Suhl there were a lots of firms side by side, all were knowing each other if not being related.
When Kettner get an order for a Mauser in 10,75x61 the rifle was build in the Kettner shop geting the barrel from the same barrel maker like any other, small parts were taken from a special maker who deliever any other gunmaker in Suhl with the same parts, if they dont had an engraver in the house the rifle was send to an engraver in the next street who made the same standard engraving on the rifle he did for all other firms.
in the end someone walking to the haenel factory and borrow the rare 10,75x61 chamber reamer for Kettner and your rifle and bring it back when the chamber was done.

if it was my rifle I would send the chamber cast to ch4d for a die set, had only the best experience with them. could be you are better with hawk bullets than woodleigh because they are softer.
the muzzle velocity was maybe +/- 620 m/sec with the 350 grains bullet, same like DWM was loading as special euro load for the 10,75x68.

to bad it lost the scope. my gunmaker would set another scope into the claw mount for 200 euro.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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3DogMike
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340562 - 30/04/20 04:47 AM

themauserkid,
What a nice rifle and interesting caliber! Best of luck getting it shooting.
Would be a fine cast lead bullet rifle if soft jacketed bullets are too scarce. I do like the Hawk bullets.
- Mike



Quote:

I would not trust head spacing on such a slight shoulder. Slugging the bore will give you the bore AND the land dimension.

10.2mm = .4015". That is not the bore or land dimension of any 10.75 cartridge.



jgrabow,
You are tripping over language usage and proof house protocol.
Nearly everywhere EXCEPT amongst USA gun nuts, “Bore” is understood to mean “land to land” measurement ie: the bore of the barrel before rifling.
10.2mm would be the largest nominal diameter (not necessarily exact land-land diameter) of the proof house plug gauge that would slide into the barrel. The Brits did the same thing except in decimal inches.
- Mike

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340563 - 30/04/20 04:49 AM

Quote:

Here are some pictures of the subject Stützen


Or not, I don’t have a photo host




Try this: Post Photos NE

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themauserkid
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #340570 - 30/04/20 05:43 AM

Thank you for all the input gentlemen. I was off a bit in my initial groove dimensioning, so I just slugged it properly. I melted a battery terminal into a .45-70 case, drilled the primer pocket and tapped it out. I turned it on my lathe to .425 and slugged it. Here are the dimensions as follows:

Bore: .4022

Groove: .4203


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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: themauserkid]
      #340571 - 30/04/20 06:05 AM

Bore: .4022 = 10,21 mm

Groove: .4203 = 10,67 mm

narrow barrel but not unsafe, make hope it shoots fine

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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jgrabow
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #340577 - 30/04/20 11:42 AM

Thanks Mike, I meant bore and groove and not bore and land.

Woodleigh bullets for the 10.75 and 404 measure .423. That could make for a tight fit. You might have to turn the case necks.

I have 404 350gr and 10.75 347gr bullets. I'll donate 5 of each if you want them. Just pay the shipping.

--------------------
Jim


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eagle27
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: jgrabow]
      #340580 - 30/04/20 04:55 PM

The two photos either side of that showing the leade and rifling in the barrel are showing the feed ramp which appears to have been severely cut away when the action has been opened up for the longer cartridge. Is there anything left of the feed ramp for the lower bolt lug to lock up against?
Is a common enough process opening up M98 actions for longer cartridges, I have one myself in 404J and there is a bit of work required on the feed ramp to fit longer cartridges but if what the photos show of the feed ramp on your Mauser is what it seems, that is quite radical and I'd be a bit concerned that the action strength has been compromised somewhat.


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DarylS
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
      #340590 - 01/05/20 03:30 AM


Appears to be some lug left- at a point at the top right corner, then thicker as it moves down.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: 10.75x61 Mauser [Re: DarylS]
      #340591 - 01/05/20 03:37 AM

got an anwswer from a friend about it, cartridge collector, he have only one pic of the 10,75x61 Haenel in the original DWM cartridge case book.

and I mean the original book

will ask him for a pic of this very rare thing

he have a cartridge but can't give me a price because for many years there was no cartridge on the market for sale.
its one of the rarest cartridges DWM was making.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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