Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: William Evans .256 MS

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
JDL
.300 member


Reged: 25/12/10
Posts: 247
Loc: Louisiana
Re: update - William Evans [Re: paradox_]
      #338314 - 25/02/20 12:02 AM

Oh yes they are beautiful rifles!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: update - William Evans [Re: JDL]
      #338330 - 25/02/20 07:02 AM

Quote:

The customer was Viscount Knollys for Viscountess Knollys.



Probably Edward Knollys, 2nd Viscount Knollys (1895–1966), see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscount_Knollys


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: update - William Evans [Re: paradox_]
      #338367 - 25/02/20 11:56 PM

Quote:

Lovely rifles rifles...both, congratulations!!

Best
Eric



Ditto!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: update - William Evans [Re: 93x64mm]
      #338497 - 28/02/20 02:45 PM

Initial word back from William Evans gunroom; my rifle was ordered on August 7th, 1900 and delivered on November 18th, 1900.
The research results and letter are in the Post to me as of today. Will add details here when I receive them.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: update - William Evans [Re: 3DogMike]
      #338687 - 05/03/20 06:32 AM

Thanks for the extra photos Mike. The front sight and base is exactly the same as on my Gibbs Rifle.

Looking forward to hear about any information from William Evans themselves.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: update - William Evans [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #338688 - 05/03/20 07:30 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the extra photos Mike. The front sight and base is exactly the same as on my Gibbs Rifle.

Looking forward to hear about any information from William Evans themselves.

Matt.



Matt,
I am now thinking that Evans, and possibly Gibbs, as well as others may well have sourced their Mannlichers “from the trade”.
I have a reproduction of the Webley & Scott Ltd. 1914 catalog, and my Wm. Evans is a dead nuts look alike for the 6.5 Mannlicher Rifle on page 23. The sights, the horn forend tip, the checkering pattern all a match.

So ordered the rifle in, ”sighted and shot” to be sure of regulation and function, then engraved the company name and details at least on the lesser grade rifles?
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: update - William Evans [Re: 3DogMike]
      #338690 - 05/03/20 08:03 AM

Mike, Gibbs themselves were actually a large supplier of Mannlicher rifles to the trade where they did all the work. Some were marked with their own name and many others with another retailers name or no name at all like my one, which is definitely a Gibbs as it not only looks like one but has the B suffix in the serial number.

Apparently Gibbs supplied more of these Mannlicher rifles in various forms as dictated by customers to the trade than anybody else. This can also be seen by the fact that most of these rifles if they have a makers name on the barrel will say "Shot and Regulated by .....) as that is often all they did.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: update - William Evans [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #338691 - 05/03/20 09:00 AM

Matt, interesting information, thanks.

I based my supposition (guess) on the Webley & Scott Ltd. catalog, as well as a writeup on a Gibbs double rifle by Cal Pappas. Gibbs said that their customers rifle was sourced "in the white" from Webley & Scott then the necessary upgrades were done by Gibbs to bring it to their desired level of finish before delivery to their customer.

thanks for the clarification.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: update - William Evans [Re: 3DogMike]
      #338696 - 05/03/20 11:10 AM

I actually wrung up the current owner of Gibbs and spoke to Mark Crudington who is a gentleman and very generous with his time. He explained to me in some detail how Gibbs built the rifles and in the case of mine it was as follows.

A complete military action was used with the barrel removed and shortened to 26" and re-profiled to a sporter pattern. A new front sight base and sight was fitted and the rear sights were removed from the original sight base, a new base machined and fitted and the rear sights sporterised with yard numbers and platinum lines, then refitted to the new base. The trigger was converted to s single stage and the original bolt handle bent down. A complete new pre-inletted stock was supplied and then finish inletted by hand. The entire stock was finish shaped and checkered by hand, in my case flat top checkering. The rifle was then shot and sighted followed by finishing the stock and plishing and bluing of the metal.

Obviously there were many variances according to customers requirements but the majority of plain grade Mannlichers sold as a Gibbs as well as those sold to the trade followed what happened above.

Some rifles were rebarreled if the buyer wanted a slightly different length or profile, or a different cartridge. Stocks could also be completely custom made as could the sights but most were as described which is probably why there are so many with similar features and the same barrel length.

At least that's what I was told by Mark.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: update - William Evans [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #338698 - 05/03/20 01:13 PM

Matt,
Indeed an interesting bit of information, thanks for sharing. Now wondering if my Steyr Mannlicher maybe came to Wm. Evans via Gibbs? Still, it matches the Webley & Scott catalog to a T.
We shall see what info Evans provides.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
pjaln
.375 member


Reged: 08/06/06
Posts: 708
Loc: massachusetts ,U.S.A.
Re: update - William Evans [Re: paradox_]
      #338745 - 07/03/20 08:20 AM

i have 3 of these very underrated rifles 2 gibbs and an army/navy ,, I'm hoping dorleac uses one for a build at some point ...paul

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: update - William Evans [Re: pjaln]
      #338753 - 07/03/20 12:10 PM

Info from William Evans for my 6.5x53R/ .256 Mannlicher:



This is the A. F. Pease mentioned on the ledger:\:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Pease,_1st_Baronet



Rifle made by Richard Ellis via Webley & Scott, Ltd.





--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: update - William Evans [Re: pjaln]
      #338754 - 07/03/20 12:35 PM

Quote:

i have 3 of these very underrated rifles 2 gibbs and an army/navy ,, I'm hoping dorleac uses one for a build at some point ...paul




Oh BOY - that will be special!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: update - William Evans [Re: DarylS]
      #338755 - 07/03/20 12:36 PM

Mike - sure nice to have the paper work!!!!!!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
pjaln
.375 member


Reged: 08/06/06
Posts: 708
Loc: massachusetts ,U.S.A.
Re: update - William Evans [Re: DarylS]
      #338801 - 08/03/20 10:14 AM

i was at i.m. crudgington in bath in 1996 the old man told m the building took shell in ww2 so not many gibbs records but comfirmed my 2 rifles as gibbs by what i told him and the B before the serial numbers,,in his shop he was building a 505 for someone in the mideast ,he had it on the bench in the back room still in the white stage he was altering a standard action ....paul

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: update - William Evans [Re: 3DogMike]
      #338818 - 08/03/20 08:46 PM

Great to see the copies of the ledger and all the information. Always very interesting and that's part of what makes collecting fun. I have a similar ledger page for my Jeffery rifle.

One question though, how did you establish that the rifle was sourced from Webley & Scott. I tried to find it in the paperwork that you have posted but couldn't see it. Obviously I have missed something.

I would have to say though that the bolt handle is definitely different to the one in the W&S 1914 catalogue. Your one looks exactly the same as my Gibbs as does the front sight and base.

I must say that all this investigating and surmising is great fun.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: update - William Evans [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #338827 - 09/03/20 01:42 AM

Quote:

Great to ......
One question though, how did you establish that the rifle was sourced from Webley & Scott. I tried to find it in the paperwork that you have posted but couldn't see it. Obviously I have missed something........
Matt.



Actually drew the conclusion by the fact that the ledger shows as coming from Ellis in July 1899; but the actual Richard Ellis & Son was acquired (or merged) with W&C Scott in 1897 to become Webley & Scott Revolver and Arms, Ltd.
There is little information extant about Ellis,
I infer that his production after 1897 might have been his as a semi-independent separate workshop part of Webley & Scott?

May be that the bolt knobs were left as military in 1899, but altered to Brit sporting style by 1914?
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: update - William Evans [Re: 3DogMike]
      #338908 - 10/03/20 07:10 AM

Mike, that makes sense, and from other investigating that I have done it seems that W&S were the next biggest supplier of Mannlicher rifles to the trade as well as under their own name. Understandable as well as W&S were one of if not the biggest supplier of guns and rifles to the trade to be re-branded or left unbranded.

In any case your rifle is a beauty.

I am looking at a William Evans Mannlicher myself soon and if purchased I will write to WE and see what information they have on that rifle. Will be interesting.


Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: update - William Evans [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #338909 - 10/03/20 07:44 AM

Matt, if you manage to acquire the Wm. Evans be sure to post it up when you can.
As an aside, George Davison of the Wm. Evans gun room that helped me is a delight to talk to by telephone if you get the chance.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Vladymere
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: update - William Evans [Re: 3DogMike]
      #338910 - 10/03/20 11:46 AM

"Another option, not yet discussed, may be that Steyr sold at that time unproofed barrelled actions to some British rifle makers?"

Though possible I expect that if the action is remove from the wood Austrian proof marks will be found.

Vlad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: update - William Evans [Re: Vladymere]
      #338914 - 10/03/20 01:40 PM

Quote:

"Another option, not yet discussed, may be that Steyr sold at that time unproofed barrelled actions to some British rifle makers?"

Though possible I expect that if the action is remove from the wood Austrian proof marks will be found.

Vlad



As mentioned above on one of my posts......out of the wood, no Austrian proof marks at all on mine. Merely a few inspectors stamps.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: update - William Evans [Re: 3DogMike]
      #340374 - 24/04/20 06:01 AM

Just to get something relevant back to the top of the Mannlicher Forum.......
- Mike


--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8665
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: update - William Evans [Re: 3DogMike]
      #340378 - 24/04/20 01:44 PM



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kammerherren
.224 member


Reged: 22/02/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Norway
Re: update - William Evans [Re: lancaster]
      #343311 - 16/07/20 08:58 AM

How did I miss this? So much added since last time I read this thread back in 2017. Thank you all for adding exiting information.

Kuduae, I believe you might be right. I’m really not familiar with the different British titles, but I understand I need to get myself one now that I have this rifle!

3DogMike, this engraving is interesting, "Sighted & Shot By William Evans (From Purdey's) 63 Pall Mall St. James London". My understanding is that a wording like this indicates exactly what you already have suggested. The rifle arrived at W.E. close to completed or in the white, tested for functionality and engraved at the end, then final finish if needed.

You also mentioned Webley Scott. I have a S/S shotgun, a W.S 700 series with the engraving: “Shot and regulated by Holland & Holland”. This is a box lock, and there is engraved an H&H on one side of the lock. This shotgun is identified in the H&H archives, but it’s not really an H&H gun at all. I have been told that H&H did extremely little to these shotguns, apparently just a quick test and some engraving before final finish. They just needed some cheaper alternatives for the game wardens out there. Ordering these from W.S was a better solution than designing a cheap box lock from the bottom. This last part was a digression from my side, but there were some details I felt like sharing.

--------------------
Collects guns made at Kongsberg Vĺpenfabrikk in Norway and European sporting rifles 1890-1940, feel free to have a look at my homepage. www.oldkongsbergarms.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rolland
.333 member


Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
Loc: Camp Verde, AZ
Re: update - William Evans [Re: 3DogMike]
      #343312 - 16/07/20 10:17 AM

Quote:

Just to get something relevant back to the top of the Mannlicher Forum.......
- Mike





+


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 21 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 16055

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved