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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Double Rifle Prices
      #33921 - 27/06/05 01:21 PM

I was looking through a couple of old catalogus tonight. For those who say Brit. Guns don't appreciate.

1987

WR 500 NE. Gold Name 500 3" 97%original metal with original case. US$4495

H&H 500/450 Royal 95% original. US$12995

Purdey 450/400 Self opener, original case US$7495

Jeffery 400 3" Box Lock, non-ejector.ReBlack 95%, overall good US$2495

From Aus, I forget the year but late 80's. This will bring back memories for some.

H&H 375 NE (2 3/4") Royal, overall fine with case. AU$8000

Fraser, 375 NE boxlock, overall excellent AU$3,999

Jeffery 400 3". Overall good. Original case. AU$3500

H&H 465 Royal. Cased as new. AU$10000.

H&H 465. Badminton Model, detachable locks, new case, excellent bores. AU$10000

Lancaster 470NE Overall Fine cased. AU$6000.

Hollis 577NE 2 3/4. 2 3/4 750 grain. Overall excellent, original case. AU$10000

Bolt Rifles

Purdey 7x57 Pre war 4x Swarovski in Purdey side mount, original case. US$2995

Rigby Double Square Bridge 416 Rigby. US$4250.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3699
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: mickey]
      #33924 - 27/06/05 01:45 PM

Those Australian prices didn't last long when our currency exchange rate fell! ...to 49 US cents at one stage!

The only thing that fell faster was the moral fortitude of our 'quick-buck' internet gun-traders!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: Marrakai]
      #33928 - 27/06/05 02:20 PM

If I remember right the Aussie Dollar was about US$.70

No internet traders then, you had to be in Oz to buy them.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: mickey]
      #33931 - 27/06/05 02:36 PM

Mickey,

Last time I was there over a 3 or 4 month period in late 2002 and early 2003, the low point of the Australian dollar according to ATM exchange rates was 48 cents US. It then went back up, or the USD dropped, and 60 days later was 67 cents US. Prices did not drop with the rise in value though. It sure was nice seeing a huge number on the ATM receipts as my "balance" though..had to check it twice because I thought I was looking at the account number.

Richard.


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: rgp]
      #33936 - 27/06/05 03:00 PM

Yeah, the Good Old Days. In the eighties the Belgian Franc was at 42 to the Dollar. The West Mark at 5 to the Dollar.

That made for some good buys in Euro Rifles and Optics. But you had to be there to take advantage.

A friend bought a new turbo Porsche in '87 for US$14000 in West Germany.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40574
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: mickey]
      #33943 - 27/06/05 03:16 PM

In reply to:

WR 500 NE. Gold Name 500 3" 97%original metalwith original case. US$4495

H&H 500/450 Royal 95% original. US$12995

Purdey 450/400 Self opener, original case US$7495

Jeffery 400 3" Box Lock, non-ejector.ReBlack 95%, overall good US$2495

From Aus, I forget the year but late 80's. This will bring back memories for some.

H&H 375 NE (2 3/4") Royal, overall fine with case. AU$8000

Fraser, 375 NE boxlock, overall excellent AU$3,999

Jeffery 400 3". Overall good. Original case. AU$3500

H&H 465 Royal. Cased as new. AU$10000.

H&H 465. Badminton Model, detachable locks, new case, excellent bores. AU$10000

Lancaster 470NE Overall Fine cased. AU$6000.

Hollis 577NE 2 3/4. 2 3/4 750 grain. Overall excellent, original case. AU$10000

Bolt Rifles

Purdey 7x57 Pre war 4x Swarovski in Purdey side mount, original case. US$2995

Rigby Double Square Bridge 416 Rigby. US$4250




Mickey

I see you are liquidating your collection. I'll get you a cheque in the mail by 5 pm. Great deals.






--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: NitroX]
      #33945 - 27/06/05 03:22 PM

I don't question that fine dbl rifles have gone up dramatically. But I wonder if they can keep going up at the same rate. Those guns have gone up by at least a factor of 10. If that continues, then 18 years from now one of those rifles will cost between half a million and three quarters of a million dollars. Perhaps, but as the prices go up, there are fewer people who can pay which would seem to be a natural limiter on pricing.

But I didn't invest in California real estate either...


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: 500grains]
      #33960 - 28/06/05 12:06 AM

In reply to:

Poster: 500grains
Subject: Re: Double Rifle Prices

I don't question that fine dbl rifles have gone up dramatically. But I wonder if they can keep going up at the same rate. Those guns have gone up by at least a factor of 10. If that continues, then 18 years from now one of those rifles will cost between half a million and three quarters of a million dollars. Perhaps, but as the prices go up, there are fewer people who can pay which would seem to be a natural limiter on pricing.






One can only hope at 10x but I think most of these have gone up between 400-500%. The AU Dollar is about the same as it was then to the US Dollar. The Euro is stronger against the Dollar than the European Currencys then though. I think the Pound was 1.1-1.2 then.

There is a limit, I suppose, but where I don't know. I think Searcy, Merkel, Krieghoff etc are driving the market now and most people who buy one of the entry level guns will someday want the older ones, for nostalgia if nothing else. they are in finite supply and the price will keep rising for them as it stays level or falls for the new ones. As long as people keep making new, entry level guns they will not appreciate much, if any.

As for people who can afford them, even in the late 70's, when the economy was in the toilet, Mercedes and Rolls Royce, BMW and Jaguar still sold everything they could make and the price of their used vehicles were up.

People with money always buy the best, not the best value.

In my opinion only, of course.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: mickey]
      #33961 - 28/06/05 12:23 AM


Mickey,

You have a PM.


Re "People with money always buy the best, not the best value."
That's why they keep going up !!!

Exclusivity is a wonderful thing and as you say, their is a finite supply.
I don't think they will go up as much as they have but they are still going up.

Will you stop buying best / good guns ?

The echange rate variations around the world will still cause guns to move
around. What is expensive in one place is cheap in another.

500 Nitro


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: 500Nitro]
      #33963 - 28/06/05 12:36 AM

%00Nitro

I got your PM and thanks for checking. I have a couple of calls out. It is still early here.

As to me, I don't chase stuff down like I used to but I still pick up stuff now and again, if it is 'the best value'.





--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: mickey]
      #33964 - 28/06/05 01:39 AM

In 1998 I bought my house in New york, paid 290k usd for a three bed room two bath 2100 sqf hoose. I just had an offer for 720kusd.

In 2002 I bought a ski condo at Stowe Vermont for 89k usd. The one acrooss form me, not as nice sold for 350k usd.

The money along th coasts is unreal. There is simply not that much high quality anything left and people will always go a little crazzy for really high end stuff.

What's going to happen is that even a shooter pre WW II will be way to expensive to actually shoot. New doubles will become "affordable" and that's what the hunter, working man will have to content himself with. The Brits will be the exclusive property of oil barons and stock wizzards.

So the moral of this story is, find as many original good condition pre war brits as you can and ... sell them to me for a song!

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: Rell]
      #33970 - 28/06/05 03:48 AM

Certainly the exchange rate is reflected in the price one must pay for anything, that goes without saying ! However, there are things that the price is driven more by other things,IMO! Double rifles is one of those things that has balooned in price, from about 1980 till about 2000. They are stabelizeing today, and IMO the grouth rate is softening somewhat! The 300% to 500% grouth rate will never again be seen on double rifles. I say this because the ecconomy is not what drove the prices so high to begine with. The fact is, there was an influx of double rifles suddenly coming on the market, when they were outlawed in INDIA, back in the early 80s. Bought for pennies on the dollar, they didn't have to sell for much money to gain by 200%, and still be a bargain. I bought a H&H Royal in the case with all the tools, and an extra set of fireing pins for $900 us, in 1958 because nobody had ammo for it, and it was simply a conversation piece that you couldn't shoot. In the 60s,70s, and early 80s, you could buy doubles chambered for things like 450/400 for a song and sing it yourself, because it was so hard to make ammo for it, nobody wanted it! Bell, Woodliegh, and a couple others reccognized the market potentual for compmnants, and opened up a business. Onece ammo became more available, the prices startrd to bounce over the house. Then once a few started playing with the cheap doubles they were lucky enough to get back when, and others startrd to learn more about double rifles in the USA, the prices began to go through the roof.

The old prices Micky quoted are little higher than those rifles sold for when new, and they were at the time when ammo was still hard for most to come by. I would like to see an add that listed those same double rifles five years after they were made. I dare to say they were not collector items, but simply five year old USED rifles, and sold at a 25% to 30% less than a new one, exactly like the used NEW double rifles of today. I believe the old Britts will increase much more slowly in the next 15 years, and when the NEW rifles sold today are 50 yrs old you will see a 200% increase in their price as well. In that same fifty yrs the brits will apprecieate no more tha 10% from today, because they are nearing the stratosphere today. I personallly have a NEW double rifle that I paid only $4695 US for two years ago( a bargain at the time), and is now selling in the area of $7000US in two years, and another that I paid only $7000US new,ten yrs ago, that now will sell for around $12000US today,USED, with a new one like it selling for $16000us. THe new rifles ARE driveing the market, and if you are willing to pay 10 times what a prewar Britt rifle cost in 1980,today, you can, but another 25 yrs down the road it will not draw a price even 50% above what you pay today. ALL THIS depending on our being able to legally own any firearms at all, at any price, 25 yrs down the road! Of course if I knew anything I'd be a millionaire, instead of liveing on a fixed income of retirement. None the less that's how I see it!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #33985 - 28/06/05 10:03 AM

Mac

i agree and disagree with you. The new entry level rifles will only rise in value as the cost of the new rifle does. A used Searcy, for example, will not be worth what the cost of a new one as long as Butch is making them. The same applies to the Brit Rifles.

The differance is that the Brit rifles start at US$40000 and Searcy starts at US $10000. The entry level rifles are exposing more and more people to affordable Doubles. As they increase their income level they will buy rifles that reflect that.

Brit rifles are of a finite number. Yes they are still made but I doubt that all the Brit makers together make as many rifles as Searcy per year.

A bad economy will see them still increase, as will collector cars, stamps, rare coins, good art etc.. Wealthy people don't suffer from resessions.

My personnal opinion is that used Brit rifles, of any quality and price will Double, at the very least, in the next 18 years from their value today. A good investment? Better than the bank and probably better than most houses if the Feds are right about housing prices. I am so sure that I will bet you One American Dollar. Let's hope we are both still around then so you can pay me.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: mickey]
      #34044 - 29/06/05 10:42 AM

In reply to:

My personnal opinion is that used Brit rifles, of any quality and price will Double, at the very least, in the next 18 years from their value today. A good investment? Better than the bank and probably better than most houses if the Feds are right about housing prices. I am so sure that I will bet you One American Dollar. Let's hope we are both still around then so you can pay me.





I'll print this quote and put it in my will, so you'll be paid! I doubt I'll live long enough to see a double accross the board on today's prices for old Britt doubles! At 68 yrs old,going into my 69th yr, if I don't get it from a surley old Cape Buffalo, or Brown bear, then I'll most likely die of old age first!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #34056 - 29/06/05 01:20 PM

Several years ago I remember a commodities broker who was bidding on 48,000 lb lots of pork bellies for an investor. He had to list an address to deliver the shipment to, and kept trying for a higher profit. Then he wasn't able to sell at a profit and some of those 48,000 lb shipments of pork bellies were actually delivered, and rotted on his front lawn.

A lot of gun collectors, as well as collectors of coins and art and all manner of other things, are doing the same dangerous game while trying to justify their hobby as an investment.

Very few people are willing to pay $50k or $100k for a hunting rifle of any sort regardless of what name is stamped on it. Among average people who like firearms and hunt, very few are even willing to spend $1,500 for ANY firearm, and if they spend anything on a gun they want it to be as durable as Snap On tools. Most don't want to buy a collection of guns because they won't use most of them if they do. If the average guy were to spend $1,500 on a firearm, and it had ANY problem whatsoever, he'd likely want to wrap the barrel around the neck of the maker.

In the USA, price increases in the older guns are now being driven by collectors and not shooters and they are now priced far beyond what they're worth, and to sell one at a profit, you have to sell to another collector.

Sooner or later the artificially inflated prices will bite buyers on the rear.

Richard.


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: rgp]
      #34058 - 29/06/05 02:32 PM

Is it possible that the aura of the best British guns, superbly made as they are, is driving people who cannot afford to buy say a top of the line Holland and Holland Royal to spend a lot of money on an old and worn gun instead? The car companies always try to style their low end models on top end ones - maybe this is human instinct and it would keep people spending money because they want to have a British gun, any British gun, because they cannot afford a Holland, Purdey or a Boss?

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #34060 - 29/06/05 03:06 PM


rgp and mehulkamdar,

We can have any expensive hobby we like, however
one thing about Good old English guns in good condition
- they TEND to appreciate and not depreciate.

A big boat, a Harley, a fast car - they all depreciate.
Godd guns generally don't unless you pay way too much
for it in the first place.

AND, at the same time, we can enjoy the guns during our brief period
of ownership.

Any thoughts or comments from anyone ?

500 Nitro


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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: 500Nitro]
      #34061 - 29/06/05 03:25 PM

500 Nitro,

If you ever sold a gun for more than you paid, you're a lot more astute at the purchase and sell concepts than I am.

Still what I am referring to, as well as what one or two others on the thread are referring to, is that investments tend to top out at a price eventually, then either stagnate at that level or drop in value. Given the limited market of double rifle buyers, a sale cannot be expected in short order, hence it is not a liquid asset.

It appears as though it would be really easy to lose on one as an investment, which stinks, because I'd actually like a nice old best grade British gun.

Richard.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: rgp]
      #34064 - 29/06/05 04:43 PM

rgp

Yes, I agree, prices and investments will top out at a price eventually - that's why you have to be aware
of what you are buying.

I also totally agree that it is not a liquid asset.

Good guns (named and unnamed) in good condition that haven't been stuffed with by gunsmiths
who don't know what they are doing will always increase in value.

Refurbished guns are where people are going to get caught - and with Shotguns the ones that
are out of proof are even more shaky.

500 Nitro


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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: 500Nitro]
      #34065 - 29/06/05 05:19 PM

500 Nitro,

In 20 years of sneaking through gunshops in Texas, I never saw a double rifle...saw just some British shotguns of all grades, mostly 2 1/2" chamered 12's, and two genuine Rigby bolt actions chambered in .416. And a mint condition original 1874 Sharps for $1200 and a mint condition 1886 Winchester .40-82 for $450, both of which I still regret not buying....

That was it to my recollection as far as the good stuff...

Never saw a double rifle until I specifically started hunting for one in specialty shops.

Saw a double rifle suitable for stomping elephants in a shop in Australia though as well as a ton of neato surplus .303 Enfields priced at only $70 AU in a shop in southwestern Vic..unfortunately the shipping and paperwork mess would likely have made the Enfields too pricy to bring to the USA. Strangely I saw no elephants near there so I still wonder how the double rifle made it into that shop...

Richard


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AussieMike
.300 member


Reged: 01/09/04
Posts: 236
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW, Aust...
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: rgp]
      #34068 - 29/06/05 06:24 PM

When I was 15 (ie 1972) I saw a Winchester 92 Trapper Carbine (you know, the one with the very much enlarged lever loop) for $AU65 (at the time $US30). When I was 21 I saw a Mauser 96 Carbine in 30 Mauser for about $A500. I couldn't buy either.

So, when I saw a Colt SAA 1st gen for $A800 ($US500)I bought it, as I did a few Bisleys, other SAA's etc. I love them "to death".

I've only ever sold one gun, a Geacado air rifle I traded on a BSA Meteor (because the BSA had a scope) at the age of seven.

Now, after an accident and not being able to work for 2 1/2 years I'm broke - and, while guns aren't as liquid as cash in the bank, they are a lot better than investment properties etc because I can sell one or two at a time to get the money I need.

Now, I don't want a million emails about SAA's etc, they're not for sale yet, but I can do you a Merkel 243 U/O ejector (factory scoped with claw mounts) or a Brno 375 H&H Belted U/O (Factory scoped).

If you really twisted my arm, I might sell a superbly accurate Vic Pederson converted and regulated Cogswell and Harrison 375 Flanged Magnum with a stock broken at the wrist and repaired with fibreglass (leather covered).

mike


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AussieMike
.300 member


Reged: 01/09/04
Posts: 236
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW, Aust...
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: rgp]
      #34069 - 29/06/05 06:28 PM

Don't forget the impact of gun laws - just imagine the prices if all those Indian millionaires and billionaires were given a chance to purchase back their heritage.

mike


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: AussieMike]
      #34070 - 29/06/05 06:50 PM

AussieMike

"just imagine the prices if all those Indian millionaires and
billionaires were given a chance to purchase back their heritage"

What do you think I'm waiting for !!!

Remember - guns are like prostitutes - they go where the money is.

That's why we have so many Winchesters in this country.

500 Nitro


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clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #34076 - 29/06/05 11:02 PM

How many guns do H&H put out in a year? If I remember correctly from something I read awhile back, it's less than 60.

I think they market their guns to people who have more money than God and "money is no object" mindset...

Rich people like CptCurl ;-)

MHO at least..

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5314
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Double Rifle Prices [Re: clark7781]
      #34078 - 29/06/05 11:27 PM

Yeah, Clark, I've got a huge stash. I just can't remember where I hid it!

Curl

P.S.

I bet you are the one who bought that David McKay Brown!

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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