Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)
Carpetsahib
.333 member


Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC
Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge
      #322030 - 01/12/18 01:16 AM

I have been looking for information regarding the W-R .375/43/270 cartridge, without success. I know that it is similar to the 9.5x57 MS / .375 Rimless NE 2 1/4 cartridge, but is it identical?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ismith
.224 member


Reged: 22/07/17
Posts: 34
Loc: Helena, MT
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #322034 - 01/12/18 03:46 AM

As far as I know, yes it is identical.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: ismith]
      #322053 - 01/12/18 10:58 AM







The above two images are from Westley Richards catalog of 1937-38.






Image above is of British proof house marks on a Mauser. My 1922 (Austrian) proofed M1910 Mannlicher Schönauer takedown is also marked (British nitro proofed) '9.5mmEX CORDITE 43-270 MAX'.

Whether the .375 Nitro Express Rimless 2.25" was developed by Westley Richards for Eley or by Eley for Westley Richards seems to be subject to debate with most agreeing that the cartridge dates to 1908.

Advertisements for the Westley Richards show up about that time, Steyr adopted it for the Mannlicher Schoenauer model of 1910.

Several early 20th century catalogs show .375 Nitro Express and 9.5X57MS for sale and on ballistics charts as two separate cartridges, differing in their powder charges. The Mannlicher gets the stronger load (i.e. two extra grains Cordite).

Ballistics data from 1939 Stoeger catalog:










Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8664
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #322072 - 02/12/18 06:14 AM

Quote:










was thinking Rothhammer1 had not only the same ICI catalog I have but also having the same handwritten
notes than became aware its made by my own hands

you must have find this deep, deep somewhere into the nitroexpress forum

heaven knows why westley richards download the 9,5x56 a little bit but there is no good reason for don't using common 9,5 MS loading data in any WR Mannlicher.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #322095 - 02/12/18 12:13 PM

Quote:


was thinking Rothhammer1 had not only the same ICI catalog I have but also having the same handwritten
notes than became aware its made by my own hands

you must have find this deep, deep somewhere into the nitroexpress forum

heaven knows why westley richards download the 9,5x56 a little bit but there is no good reason for don't using common 9,5 MS loading data in any WR Mannlicher.




Busted!

The 1939 Stoeger is my own copy, deconstructed, the other images have been 'swiped' from the 'net over time. The Mauser pictured was also from an NE member post, I believe.

This may be 'splitting hairs' a bit (and doesn't matter much) but I'd say, with the Westley Richards .375 2.25" NE dating from 1908 and the MS 9.5X57 from 1910, that the MS is an 'upload' of the WR .375 rather than vice-versa.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ducmarc
.400 member


Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1207
Loc: fla
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #322100 - 02/12/18 02:56 PM

well sure makes the 318 look good with 3200 lbs of muzzle energy

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Carpetsahib
.333 member


Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #322113 - 02/12/18 11:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:


was thinking Rothhammer1 had not only the same ICI catalog I have but also having the same handwritten
notes than became aware its made by my own hands

you must have find this deep, deep somewhere into the nitroexpress forum

heaven knows why westley richards download the 9,5x56 a little bit but there is no good reason for don't using common 9,5 MS loading data in any WR Mannlicher.




Busted!

The 1939 Stoeger is my own copy, deconstructed, the other images have been 'swiped' from the 'net over time. The Mauser pictured was also from an NE member post, I believe.

This may be 'splitting hairs' a bit (and doesn't matter much) but I'd say, with the Westley Richards .375 2.25" NE dating from 1908 and the MS 9.5X57 from 1910, that the MS is an 'upload' of the WR .375 rather than vice-versa.


Maybe...But what about the W-R Catalog which lists a new load at 2200 fps? Are we trying to unscramble an egg here?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #322138 - 03/12/18 07:24 PM

Quote:



This may be 'splitting hairs' a bit (and doesn't matter much) but I'd say, with the Westley Richards .375 2.25" NE dating from 1908 and the MS 9.5X57 from 1910, that the MS is an 'upload' of the WR .375 rather than vice-versa.


Maybe...But what about the W-R Catalog which lists a new load at 2200 fps? Are we trying to unscramble an egg here?




Optimism?

Notice there's no powder load shown to go with the '2200' claim.


That ad dates from 1909, the Westley Richards catalog of 1937-38 shows the Westley Richards .375 Rimless loaded at 43 grains for 2100fps with the MS loads at 45 grains for 2200fps.



What I've long found to be interesting is that every British nitro proofed M1910 Mannlicher Schönauer that I've seen images of, as well as my own, is stamped "CORDITE 43-270 MAX" while the commercially available 9.5X57MS cartridges were loaded at 45 grains.

Here is a discussion of these on the International Ammunition Association Web Forum: IAA Forum

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Carpetsahib
.333 member


Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #322148 - 04/12/18 12:42 AM

Ok, this clarifies matters a bit. So apparently, the initial load was 270 at 2200 fps, but downloaded later.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #322181 - 04/12/18 04:28 PM

Quote:

Ok, this clarifies matters a bit. So apparently, the initial load was 270 at 2200 fps, but downloaded later.




Perhaps.

For all we know, however, the 2200fps could be from a development load for the Mannlicher Schönauer M1910 (9.5X57MS) which was marketed by Westley Richards. The text of the ad does not specify a powder load or cartridge number and refers to it as a cartridge "adapted by Westley Richards & Co. after careful experiment". Several sources, including Westley Richards, indicate that the .375 Nitro Express Rimless was originally designed by WR.

Also, the '270' refers to the projectile weight in grains which is common to both the .375 RNE and 9.5X57MS as listed. The difference in velocity was due to different powder charges - 43 grains Cordite for the .375RNE, 45 grains for the 9.5X57MS.

To find definitive answers, one would need access to the original, accurately dated, documentation from the firms that designed the cartridges and that manufactured them.

From what I've found that would be Westley Richards - or not. It could be DWM, perhaps dating from 1908 - or not... . From WR's own 1938 catalog and others, however, we can see that the two cartridges coexisted for three decades with the 'Westley Richards .375 Rimless Express' loaded at 43 grains Cordite, the Mannlicher Schönauer 9.5X57 getting 45 grains. The 'Standard Ballistics of English Cartridges' table found in the 1939 Stoeger shows us the same cartridges at the same loads, lacking the 'Westley Richards' designation on the .375RNE and the velocity of the 9.5X57MS at 2150fps, not 2200.

Throughout its history the 9.5X57 has been called by several names by several manufacturers and worn several headstamps.

Click this link to see several such examples: http://www.municion.org/9_5Mann/9_5Mann.htm


Happy hunting.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #322182 - 04/12/18 05:25 PM

Quote:

Ok, this clarifies matters a bit.




As clear as mud!

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #339000 - 13/03/20 09:42 AM

Resurrecting this thread!
I just bought a Mauser in 375 Rimless - in fact, the very one pictured above in Rothhammer1’s post.

I am wondering why W.R. loaded this cartridge with a much lower charge than even the 9.3X57?
Did they want to avoid competition to their darling 318?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #339001 - 13/03/20 10:51 AM

Huvius, that will be a nice rifle to own, love to see some photos.

The one in Rothammers thread is however a MS not a Mauser. So which one did you buy.

The 375NE was also between 50 and 100 fps slower than the 9.5x57. One can only assume that it was designed as a sort of tropical load as almost all guns chambered for that cartrdige would have been used overseas.

Having said that considering that it has a bullet weight of 270 grains versus the 318 of 250 grain at 2400 fps it is probably fairly consistent considering case size. A 318 with a 270 grain bullet would not have been much faster I wouldn't think.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #339003 - 13/03/20 11:37 AM

It’s the Mauser photo above showing the proof marks in white.

It is a really cool rifle with a great bore.
Actually fits in quite nicely in the “No name Mauser” thread.
Will get photos up tomorrow.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #339005 - 13/03/20 11:51 AM

I see, my mistake, I thought you were referring to the catalogue picture.

Looking forward to see it.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #339007 - 13/03/20 12:43 PM

Quote:


Having said that considering that it has a bullet weight of 270 grains versus the 318 of 250 grain at 2400 fps it is probably fairly consistent considering case size. A 318 with a 270 grain bullet would not have been much faster I wouldn't think.

Matt.




Indeed.

Per Westley Richards:


--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #339008 - 13/03/20 01:35 PM

Quote:

Resurrecting this thread!
I just bought a Mauser in 375 Rimless - in fact, the very one pictured above in Rothhammer1’s post.






If you're planning to handload .375 RNE for your Mauser, you'll have greater flexibility with projectile choices than you would with a Mannlicher Schoenauer.

The Schoenauer magazine performs flawlessly and with impeccable reliability when fed with uniform cartridges that conform very closely to the Eley drawing posted above. Changes in bullet profile or cartridge OAL can cause jams. The stacked magazine of the Mauser is not so particular.

I have a few boxes of 9.5X57 that were loaded (by someone else) with semi spitzers that I can load singly or by two in the magazine. Loading a third jams it. I'll either pull the bullets or just shoot them out by twosies while sighting in.

If you come across any of the now virtually extinct Hornady 3715 (270 grain RN) projectiles at this point in time you could likely trade them (at a rate favorable to you, if desired) to an M1910 shooter for whatever other .375 he may have or even 9.5X57 cartridges loaded with bullets other than 270 RN.

Properly sized new brass is available from Quality Cartridge (Qual-Cart). I have some. It measures right, haven't loaded any yet. If you'd rather reform other brass the .35 Whelen is an excellent 'donor case'. The plentiful .30-'06 works every bit as well, yet sizing to .375 takes more work. Either case, of course, is longer than 57mm and needs to be cut to proper length.

Midway Qual-Cart



--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #339013 - 13/03/20 02:57 PM

So far I have simply run 8X57 brass into my 9.5 dies and they chamber just fine.
I will source some 270gr projectiles and load to standard.
My rifle has a 28” barrel which I am thinking was to wring out every bit of velocity from the standard loading.
I just feel that a Mauser could contain more powerful charges or heavier bullets than the original loads.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #339046 - 14/03/20 08:17 AM

Absolutely Huvius. In a good bolt action there are no flies on that round. I would expect 2400 to 2500fps with the 270gr.
Afterall, the ctg. has the dimensions (except for shoulder angle), for an Ackley IMP ctg.
.455" shoulder
.469" base

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #339057 - 14/03/20 06:46 PM

Quote:

So far I have simply run 8X57 brass into my 9.5 dies and they chamber just fine.





Of course they will. They aren't oversized.

Ask yourself this; do they 'Chamber" just fine because the shoulders are too low and too narrow, leaving a 'jump' to be filled by stretching, thinning, and weakening the case near the base as they are fired?



Perhaps those cases should first be lubricated and 'drawn straight' or at least to dimensions meeting or slightly exceeding proper 9.5X57 cases before sizing.

If you still have 'raw' 8X57 'donor cases' of the type that you have been using that you haven't resized yet, measure the diameter at the shoulder and length from base to shoulder. Also consider the taper from base to shoulder.

Now consider whether or not your 9.5X57 resizing die touches the 8x57 shoulder at all.

Then measure an unfired cartridge that has been loaded as you have described. Does it conform to the Eley drawing below? If not, are the differences tolerable to you?

Color me cautious, but in the past I have ordered another reloader's "9.5X57" cartridges that were made of 9.3X57 brass that had been merely run through 9.5X57 dies and had left the 9.3X57 shoulder absolutely untouched, as 9.3X57 has a lower, narrower shoulder than 9.5X57. They were sent back.

A likely result of firing them would have been that when the rapidly expanding gases hit that unsupported shoulder the brass would have stretched forward thinning the case at the 'web' area near the base. Afterward, the newly 'fireformed' case would have looked and measured like a 9.5X57 (.375 Nitro Express Rimless), but would quite possibly have stretched at the base, weakening the case which could lead to case separation after repeated use.

When resizing (and trimming excess length) of .30-'06 or .35 Whelen brass, the shoulder is driven downward from its original position, as the donor case shoulder was 'taller', leaving a true and proper new shoulder length, though still a bit narrow.

The way to mitigate these potential problems is to draw 'donor brass' to the width of 9.5x57 throughout, then run through sizing die.

I have used .35 Whelen as 'donor' brass before without having drawn them straight and have thought everything is O.K., but now view those cases with a bit of the 'hairy eyeball'.

For peace of mind, I'd recommend using properly sized new brass or drawing 'donor' cases to proper width before sizing.

Perhaps I'm just a 'nervous Nelly', but I am rather fond of my Mannlicher Schoenuer, and of my right eye, side of face, and skull. Case separations can affect such things.

Reloading is a science. Reloading for 'obsolete calibers' is an art form. Be careful and enjoy.



Here is a source for properly loaded 9.5X57 ammunition, made from Norma brass drawn straight and properly resized: Reeds

Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #339062 - 15/03/20 02:34 AM

Very good advice there.
I’m thinking that I will try fire forming them before loading for real to see if they measure up then, if that isn’t acceptable, I will go the 30’06 brass route.
Also, I think I will smoke a formed dummy cartridge and see if the shoulder is touching the chamber.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #339070 - 15/03/20 01:26 PM

You can also check to see whether the shoulder is to far back by feeding a case into the chamber and closing the bolt. If the shoulder is back to far then the extractor will not jump over the rim when you close the bolt.

I have a set of CH4D dies for my 9.5x57 and it contains an expander to open the case up to parallel, however as it opens up the case significantly in one hit it takes a lot of effort to move the ram which means that you are placing a lot of vertical load on the case. It would be better to make up an additional expander to open the case up half way first. It's also a good idea to get the expander button coated with one of the super hard low coefficient of friction coatings that they use on cutting tools. I use the Zenit coating from Guehring but in the US they have some additional coatings with an even lower coefficient of friction.

I am making one for my die set so am happy to make one up for you as well.

Or anybody else who wants one.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #339074 - 15/03/20 07:45 PM

Quote:


Also, I think I will smoke a formed dummy cartridge and see if the shoulder is touching the chamber.




An excellent idea.



--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #339075 - 15/03/20 08:10 PM

Quote:

It would be better to make up an additional expander to open the case up half way first. It's also a good idea to get the expander button coated with one of the super hard low coefficient of friction coatings that they use on cutting tools. I use the Zenit coating from Guehring but in the US they have some additional coatings with an even lower coefficient of friction.

I am making one for my die set so am happy to make one up for you as well.

Or anybody else who wants one.

Matt.




I have read advice from others over the years and it seems a lot of 'old timers' used .30-'06 to make their 9.5X57 after opening the necks with three expanders of graduated sizes so's not to overstress the brass.

I found loading fresh .35 Whelen was a breeze through RCBS dies, sizing in a single step. That was without having drawn them straight, however, and the shoulders were a wee bit narrow on the unfired rounds as .35 Whelen tapers inward along its length moreso than does 9.5X57.

I've had no signs of failure after having used that brass for at least four loadings, but there could be unseen weakness near the base as the shoulders 'squared up' a tad when fired and the cases expanded outward a bit along their length.

With the slight (tiny?) shoulder of the 9.5X57, you'll not want to be lower or narrower at the shoulder than these.

L to R: New reload from Reed's, one of my unfired handloads from .35 Whelen loaded with RCBS dies (after trimming length), original (1926 coded) DWM531, fired brass from my .35 Whelen based reload.

Another idea is to locate some of these to have on hand for direct comparison:


--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Westley Richards .375/43/270 Proprietary Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #340154 - 17/04/20 12:52 AM

I decided it would be prudent to draw the cases out as close to cylindrical as I can and then resize them back.
That worked quite well although it took four steps per case with a silly variety of dies and expanders.
I was very fortunate to source some of the Hornady 270gr RN bullets on GunBroker and from fellow N.E. member 3DogMike so will be right with those.
In my GB purchase I also received a box of cast 265gr gas checked and lubed bullets which I think could be helpful in fire forming the brass before full power loads are made.
I have seen reduced cast loads with IMR4198 (which I have a bit).
Would it be appropriate to load these with the bullet touching the lands with a nice firm bolt closure insuring the rim is up against the bolt face?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 29 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 8570

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved