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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Mannlicher-Schoenauer-carbine--one of the first mtn rifles??
      #337410 - 04/02/20 12:37 PM

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/03/mannlicher-schoenauer-carbine/#axzz6CweV5lXZ

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer-carbine--one of the first mtn rifles?? [Re: Ripp]
      #337417 - 04/02/20 03:56 PM

Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2017/03/mannlicher-schoenauer-carbine/#ixzz6CxNuedRM



The designers of this classic rifle design were Ferdinand Mannlicher who was responsible for the action, and Otto Shoenauer, who conceived the removable, rotary magazine.
Its first appearance was at the 1900 World’s Fair, and the main emphasis was military sales.

The rifle action was a derivative of earlier Mannlicher military rifles, and it famously used a series of proprietary cartridges, most notably the 6.5X54mm M-S. The action featured twin-front opposed locking lugs a la “Mauser,” but also used a split rear bridge to allow an abutment that also had the bolt handle integrally-machined with it to act as a third “safety lug,” in the case of both front lugs failing from an over-pressure cartridge.
The most interesting part of the action though was Shoenauer’s magazine. Each rotary spool magazine was spring detachable from the action for cleaning. Each caliber had to have spools to match the portion of the case’s diameter to ensure proper function and feeding.
Every one is as smooth operating as if it was suspended on axles with ball-bearings.
The same could be said of the action’s operation. The beautiful close tolerances, heat-treatment of superior steel alloys, and the lack of drag against the bottom of the bolt body by a sprung magazine follower as in every other bolt-action rifle save the Norwegian / U.S. Krag-Jorgensen, means that it is the only bolt-action I am aware that it is capable of closing and locking an open bolt into battery by simply tilting the rifle toward the ground while keeping the trigger pulled.
The Greeks were the first and only military to adopt the M-S rifle as standard issue in 1903. After WWI, the factory built mostly hunting rifles, and none are more renowned than the 18.5” Carbines. There were various sub-variants with minor changes in 1903, 1905, 1908, 1920, 1924, 1950, 1952, and 1961, but none of the varied from the original design characteristics, mostly by cosmetic or dimensional changes to the wood stocking.
I am unaware of which specific M-S rifles famed Scottish hunter William Dalrymple Maitland Bell used to hunt/slaughter elephants prior to WWI. It is said that the vast majority of his over 1,000(!) elephant kills were with small bore rifles of 6.5mm through .303”, due to his study of elephant skull anatomy and placement of the shots into the brain from rear oblique angles.

Mannlicher-Schoenauer Carbine Patent Example Left side view. img gunsamerica.com auction sold 2014
The Mannlicher-Schoenauer Carbine is indeed a joy to hold and swing, much more in keeping with a shotgun than a rifle. My own M1952 was chambered in the then-new .308 Winchester and built in the late-1950s. It featured the then usual double-set trigger system found on most of the Carbines, whereby the rear trigger was used to set the front trigger to a pull weight of about 1.5lbs; far better than the stock, un-set pull of some eight creepy pounds! (a single-set trigger, or one with a proper 3lb release without the set mechanism is favored, though)
The major demerit of the M-S rifle or Carbine is the split-bridge action, making scope mounting both more difficult and higher in placement for clearance of the bolt handle. The M1961 rifles and carbines featured a Monte-Carlo comb and cheek rest design, along with the near obligatory era black plastic grip cap and fore-end tip with white plastic spacers, to help afford a proper cheek weld for accuracy consistency but made them ungainly compared to the former sleek shape of its forebears.
The only time this Carbine took big game in my hands was long ago on Santa Cruz Island off Oxnard, California, in the days before Bill Clinton via the Nature Conservancy made it into a National Wildlife Refuge, and nearly all the wild boars placed there as a food source by the Spanish in the 1600s were exterminated as a non-indigenous species. A running shot on a smaller sow at 75 yards with the set trigger and a Leupold Alaskan 3-power scope with one shot was all that was needed, just behind the right shoulder. A number of good dinners ensued.

Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1903 Bolt Action Carbine with Scope **
Nowadays, these are valued collector’s items, yet there is a gentleman in Austria who apparently still manufactures these rifles and carbines, which Steyr-Mannlicher themselves discontinued in 1972, due to the expense of production.
The website, only in German, is found here: https://goo.gl/WFiYkB
The Mannlicher-Schoenauer Carbines are indeed beautifully-made arms before plastics and MIM dominated the firearms industry as it does so today.

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer-carbine--one of the first mtn rifles?? [Re: Ripp]
      #337447 - 05/02/20 11:20 AM

Quote:

Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2017/03/mannlicher-schoenauer-carbine/#ixzz6CxNuedRM



There were various sub-variants with minor changes in 1903, 1905, 1908, 1920, 1924, 1950, 1952, and 1961, but none of the varied from the original design characteristics, mostly by cosmetic or dimensional changes to the wood stocking.
I am unaware of which specific M-S rifles famed Scottish hunter William Dalrymple Maitland Bell used to hunt/slaughter elephants prior to WWI. It is said that the vast majority of his over 1,000(!) elephant kills were with small bore rifles of 6.5mm through .303”, due to his study of elephant skull anatomy and placement of the shots into the brain from rear oblique angles.






A decent article, but not without error.
I posted a reply to that article two years ago which contains two errors of my own.

Where I detail the 'three (magazine) lengths during prewar manufacture' I was wrong. In fact the M1903 through M1910 have the same length of magazine, the M1924/25 were longer, and the later 'magnum' offerings were larger than those. Also, the 'Sequoia' was originally manufactured for export by the Sequoia Importing Co., not Stoeger.

Along with that, I've read more about W.D.M. Bell and his M1903 and he writes of only one instance where he used the MS on elephant. He did take five tuskers with it in one day, all 'brain shots', but after digging out and analyzing the spent bullets he expressed dissatisfaction with the British made ammo that was available to him at the time and that he no longer trusted it for use on dangerous game. He did, however, write of his overall fondness of the light, quick carbine and favored its use to get game "for the pot" and for wingshots on birds that he did to keep his aim sharp.

Here is that reply:


Rothhammer1
Good readers:

There is an error in the author’s listing of Mannlicher Schoenauer sporting models.

They are listed in the article as “sub-variants with minor changes in 1903, 1905, 1908, 1920, 1924, 1950, 1952 and 1961 [sic]…” The designations of Models 1903 through 1910 (1910 was omitted from author’s list, there never was a 1920) indicated which proprietary caliber the rifle (or carbine) would be chambered for at the Steyr factory, thus:

M1903 – 6.5×54
M1905 – 9X56
M1908 – 8×56
M1910 – 9.5 X 57* The 1910 is also referred to as 9.5×56 and, by the British, as .375 Nitro Express Rimless.

The M1924 Mannlicher Schoenauer was built for export to the U.S. (Stoeger) as the ‘Sequoia’, chambered in .30-’06 caliber. About 1000 were built, unsold examples were returned to Austria and many were rebarreled and converted by Steyr to various calibers (7X57, 7X64, 8X57JS, 8X60S, 9.3X62 and 10.75X68 for the European market (they are oft referred to as M1925).

The action and spool magazines came in three lengths during ‘prewar’ manufacture; ‘small’- M1903 (and M1900, previous military models), ‘medium’- 1905, 1908, 1910 and ‘large’- 1924 (‘high velocity’).

All of the above models were available in halfstock and fullstock (stutzen) configurations and with various barrel lengths. Factory ‘British’ takedown models were also offered from Steyr as were various levels of engraving, tang sights, scope mountings, spare sight beads in a hideaway grip cap, etcetera. The pre – WW2 MS rifles and carbines had a trapdoor buttplate that, when opened, revealed storage for the original cleaning rods and two ‘oh sh!t’ rounds.

M1950 and later, though Austrian made Mannlicher Schoenauers, had more significant design changes and are widely regarded as not being as well made as their predecessors. They are still, however, among the finest sporting arms ever built.

W.D.M. ‘Killimanjaro’ Bell’s favorite (and Ernest Hemingway’s) was the handy 1903 carbine (6.5X54). They had a very long projectile which had exceptional sectional density, imparting a great deal of energy to a 6.5mm spot when delivered to the target, piercing thick bone and flesh. The MS rifles and (especially) carbines were very highly regarded as fast, light brush and dangerous game guns with instinctive sight acquisition when used without scope, as they were designed to be.

I am proud custodian of my grandfather’s M1910 ‘British Takedown’ (Osterr. Waffenfabr-Ges Steyr factory takedown system) with Gerard claw mount scope and original fitted case. With the takedown, after removing the Schoenauer rotary magazine, a flip of a lever forward of the triggerguard and removal of a forend pin releases the barreled action from the stock. The only ‘tool’ required is a bullet with which to release the magazine. When assembled, the ‘prewar’ Mannlichers can be quickly and conveniently loaded by use of a five round ‘stripper clip’ from above (‘postwar’ models omitted this feature). Pressing a button alongside the bolt channel releases all rounds to the shooter’s waiting hand if desired.

Handling and shooting the M1910 is, indeed, a pleasure and was my introduction to reloading – a necessity with most of the MS proprietary calibers and worthwhile part of the experience of owning one.

I highly recommend these rifles and carbines to anyone who appreciates history and fine craftsmanship, particularly for reloaders.

BR.

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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vykkagur
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Reged: 28/11/19
Posts: 223
Loc: Canada
Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer-carbine--one of the first mtn rifles?? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #337452 - 05/02/20 11:57 AM

Beautiful examples - one with my favourite Pachmayr Lo-Swing.

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer-carbine--one of the first mtn rifles?? [Re: vykkagur]
      #337453 - 05/02/20 12:57 PM

Quote:

Beautiful examples - one with my favourite Pachmayr Lo-Swing.




.




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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer-carbine--one of the first mtn rifles?? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #337462 - 05/02/20 04:45 PM

Quote:

I am unaware of which specific M-S rifles famed Scottish hunter William Dalrymple Maitland Bell used to hunt__ elephants prior to WWI.




Bell's 1903 MS carbine was owned by Don Henry, co-founder and editor of the Mannlicher Collectors Assn newsletter, at least during the 1990s if memory serves (and sometimes it doesn't!)
As a result, plenty was published about that particular rifle, at least in MCA's newsletters, and there was also an article in the Australian Shooter's Journal in the early 1990s.
I recall the full-length stock was bag-grip and had a slightly elevated comb to suit the cocking-piece peep sight. Bell's Nairobi telephone number was stamped onto the inside of the butt-trap lid.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer-carbine--one of the first mtn rifles?? [Re: Marrakai]
      #337464 - 05/02/20 04:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I am unaware of which specific M-S rifles famed Scottish hunter William Dalrymple Maitland Bell used to hunt__ elephants prior to WWI.




Bell's 1903 MS carbine was owned by Don Henry, co-founder and editor of the Mannlicher Collectors Assn newsletter, at least during the 1990s if memory serves (and sometimes it doesn't!)
As a result, plenty was published about that particular rifle, at least in MCA's newsletters, and there was also an article in the Australian Shooter's Journal in the early 1990s.
I recall the full-length stock was bag-grip and had a slightly elevated comb to suit the cocking-piece peep sight. Bell's Nairobi telephone number was stamped onto the inside of the butt-trap lid.




A previous thread from NE, with links to others: NitroExpress

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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vykkagur
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Reged: 28/11/19
Posts: 223
Loc: Canada
Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer-carbine--one of the first mtn rifles?? [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #337496 - 06/02/20 06:16 AM

Great pics, Rothhammer1, thanks. I'll ad those to my Lo-Swing reference file.

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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
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Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer-carbine--one of the first mtn rifles?? [Re: vykkagur]
      #338673 - 05/03/20 01:52 AM

Marrakai, thanks for that intel.

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