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TIMBERMAN
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The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ?
      #337244 - 01/02/20 04:46 AM

Wondering if you can tell some of what you know is the earliest calibers loaded in brass / metallic cartridge ?
I suppose 50-70 and also 12,17x44 swedish/norwegian is pretty early. But I know you out there have a lot of knowledge in this subject. Please tell...


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Daryl_S
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: TIMBERMAN]
      #337250 - 01/02/20 05:26 AM

Gallagher Carbine (1861) & Burnside(1855), developed a bit earlier than the civil war, I think. both of these needed percussion caps for ignition.

For totally contained ctg, the .22 and other rim fires pre-civil war & civil war period preceded the inside primed .57/70 of 1868, which quickly became outside primed (externally seated primer).

Google might help.

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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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HistoricBore
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #337251 - 01/02/20 05:34 AM

From a British perspective the earliest cartridges all date from 1865. Some of the ones that survived for a while are the .320 and .380 revolver cartridges which were also chambered in Rook rifles. I have an early small-size Snider rifle chambered for the .380.

The other obvious one is the .360 x 2.25" Express rifle cartridge. I have some original rounds that feature the separate brass case head fitted with a coiled brass body holding the black powder and bullet. This type of construction was also used for the British Army .577/ 450 round, but it was not reliable and often caused extraction problems - not good if a Zulu is charging you!

Later someone developed the technique of drawing one piece brass cases.

HB


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lancaster
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #337253 - 01/02/20 05:37 AM

you are light years to late!


Jean Samuel Pauly (1766 – c. 1821), born Samuel Johannes Pauli, was a Swiss inventor and gunsmith of the early 19th century. Parish records show that he was baptised in Vechigen near Bern, Switzerland on 13 April 1766, the son of Johann Pauli and Veronika Christine.

Switzerland

Pauly started working as a carriage builder and mechanic in his father's workshop; he was constantly looking for technical improvements (such as a self-lubricating axle) and also ways to increase the comfort of passengers. He later moved away to settle in nearby Bern in order to sell his inventions to the rich patricians there; a written testimony advertising his own carriages and promoting his technical successes may be seen in the city's trade handbook of 1796.[3][4]

However, all this ended when, in March 1798, more than 30,000 French soldiers marched on the Zähringerstadt in the medieval area of the city to secure free access to the Alpine passes for Napoleon Bonaparte, and also to rob the legendary Bernese treasury to finance the campaign in Egypt. Pauly was an artillery sergeant[5] in the Swiss Army, and, seeing the superiority of the light and easily mobile guns of the French over the heavy Bernese ones (which required a team of oxen), he went on to design artillery for the new Helvetian army that required just a horse or a few strong men. Whilst fighting in Massena's campaign against the Russians in 1799, he wrote a manual about the usage of firearms.

Many bridges in the new Helvetic Republic had been destroyed during the invasion, and in 1801 Pauly submitted plans to the central government for an elegant arched bridge with great carrying capacity. Those plans were checked and approved, and he even received two hundred francs from the Helvetian State Treasury, but, as the new state was constantly on the brink of bankruptcy, further money never materialised, and, with little demand for new carriages either, Pauly had to look around for a new way of earning his living.
Pauli's first airship (1802)

For many years, he had set himself the ambitious goal of creating the world's first human-powered aircraft. The plan of an airship which Pauli drew in the spring of 1802 was in the form of a fish, with an elongated black hull, a vertical red tail fin, and two lateral fins to the left and right of the head to control it; two round, golden-rimmed eyes and a golden mouth gave the vehicle a dream-like and friendly look.

Although the dignitaries of Bern became very enthusiastic about this project, there was still no money to be had from them, so after learning that General Michael Ney in France had donated fifty thousand francs from the French treasury for a similar experiment there, Pauly packed his things and moved to Paris in 1802, never to return.
France

Under the protection of General Ney, he moved into a beautiful apartment in Paris; now calling himself Jean Pauly, he commissioned Aime Bolle, the city's most famous balloon designer, to build an airship for him in accordance with his plans drawn up in Bern. Its maiden voyage on 22 August 1804 in the castle park of Sceaux was, from a technical point of view at least, quite successful, and a year later, on 4 November 1805, at half past three in the afternoon, the Flying Fish rose again. As Pauly told the readers of the Journal de Paris the next day, it sailed from the Tivoli Park in a moderate easterly wind at the speed of a galloping horse to the Champs-Élysées and the Place de la Concorde, where the aeronaut operated his aerial rudder and managed, according to his own words, five or six minutes against the wind to stay in place and to enjoy the thunderous applause of the onlookers. (For the planned return to Tivoli Park, he wrote that, regrettably, he had needed the muscular strength of an additional man, so the Flying Fish drifted west for another eighty kilometers, landing four and a half hours later at dusk, near the Cathedral of Chartres.)
Breech-loading shotgun using self-contained cartridges, from Pauli’s 1812 French patent



-------------------Whilst in Paris, Pauly had maintained contact with the weapon manufacturer of Saint-Étienne; using the title "Colonel Jean Samuel Pauly"[5], he established a gunsmith workshop where he designed an automatic bridge and developed mercury fulminate platina. In 1808, in association with French gunsmith François Prélat, Pauly created the first fully self-contained cartridges[6][7]; these incorporated a copper base with integrated potassium chlorate[8] primer powder (the major innovation of Pauly), a round bullet and either brass or paper casing.[5][9] Unlike later cartridges, the case walls didn't provide obturation as the cartridge was loaded through the breech and fired with a needle or a pin; this needle-activated central-fire breech-loading gun would become a major feature of firearms thereafter,[10] and in 1809 Pauly employed the German Johann Nikolaus von Dreyse who would later become the inventor of the famous Dreyse rifle.

The corresponding firearm was also developed by Pauly[6], who made an improved version which was protected by a patent on 29 September 1812,------------------



[6][7] and the cartridge was further improved by the French gunsmith Casimir Lefaucheux in 1836. It is reported that Napoleon himself said of Pauly's weapons: "Inventions that precede their time remain untapped until general knowledge has reached the same level."[11]

On the fall of Paris to the allies on 5 April 1814, von Dreyse left for Prussia, but Pauly left for London with the blueprints of his flying fish in his luggage.
England

He settled in Charlotte Street in the heart of London under the name of Samuel John Pauly, and planned to continue with his flying project under the sponsorship of Durs Egg (an established businessman, personally known to King George III and the Prince of Wales); on 25 April 1815, the King granted the two Swiss men a licence to build an "aerostatic machine in the shape of a fish or bird" with the aim to have it flying within six months.
Dolphin airship by Jean Samuel Pauly and Durs Egg c.1817 (from a c.1835 print)

A large building (30 metres in length) with the gates opening from the floor to the roof was built near Hyde Park; this was probably the first hangar in the history of aviation. Seamstresses were hired to sew the outer fish-shaped shell of the hydrogen-filled airship in sevenfold layers from the dried intestines of 70,000 oxen; a second, spherical balloon would provide pressure equalization inside the fish. The 10 metre tailfin serving as the helm was made of silk and whalebone, as were the rudders on the left and right. As for the drive, Pauly had learned from his Paris flights that muscle power alone was not enough, so new to his plans was the lightest possible steam engine[12].

On 16 August 1816, the London Observer reported that the "Flying Dolphin" was almost complete and would soon begin regular air traffic to Paris, with fifteen to twenty passengers a time. The aircraft was the talk of the town and attracted crowds of onlookers who paid a guinea for the right to take a look inside the hangar and to be a spectator on the maiden flight. When Madame Tussaud's wax museum was touring Manchester, a scale model of the Flying Dolphin hung above the entrance. Egg and Pauly announced that, if the weather was calm on maiden flights, they would steer the fish-shaped balloon "in circles around London", but in strong winds they would take a different course but still return to the starting position.
The ticket inviting people to take part in the demonstration of flying in London in 1817.

Unfortunately, the maiden flight never took place, but the nature of the difficulties with which the aeronauts struggled is unknown. Over the defeat, these two Swiss airship pioneers came into conflict[13] and their working relationship fell apart.

During this time of working with Egg, Pauly had not forgotten about his revolutionary firearm design, and, while in England, Pauly took out two more patents for modifications to his gun[7]. The first patent was granted on 4 August 1814[7] and covered a new design of using compressed air to move a needle into the priming compound really quickly so the heat from this would then ignite the priming compound or powder; it also covered a cannon that used a similar ignition design. The second patent was granted on 14 May 1816[7] and was an improvement on the first, covering the pistol and more variations of the gun; it also went into much more detail on the cannon.

Pauly sank into poverty and in 1821 (or soon after), when still in his fifties, he died somewhere in the big city, and his achievements were forgotten for many years.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Samuel_Pauly

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Daryl_S
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: HistoricBore]
      #337254 - 01/02/20 05:43 AM

Pretty sure the copper rim fire cases of the US, were drawn or perhaps punched, then formed to the rim-fire configuration with the hollow rim, I guess is a better descriptor for them.
The 44Henry ctg. was used in the 1860 Henry rifle.
There were other rimfires preceding this, 1857 for the .22 short.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Daryl_S
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #337255 - 01/02/20 05:47 AM

Of course, there were cannon ctgs., of metal & loaded with powder and shot for breech loading cannon in the mid 1500's, seems to me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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TIMBERMAN
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #337256 - 01/02/20 07:08 AM

Really interesting reading !
I am thinking of rifle calibers mostly, not cannons and arbalests
What was the dimensions / caliber on Pauly's rifle ?
Nice that the 360 2 & 1/4 is a really early cartridge. A number 1 favourite of mine to shoot. Perfect.
Were there more "in the middle" calibers coming in the early years, not down to 22 short and not up to 577 ?


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lancaster
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #337257 - 01/02/20 07:12 AM

there are reloadable chamber inserts for flint lock guns but the oldest real cartridge is the one form pauly

something like 22 short was only a poor imitation of Floberts rimfire cartridge, patented in 1846
of course, an american invention

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
      #337263 - 01/02/20 08:30 AM

Very interesting reading Lancaster!
I always thought the Flobert was the first real cartridge?


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Wayne59
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #337275 - 01/02/20 12:06 PM

I have a pinfire that uses a 58cal brass cartridge. Don't know when it was made.

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lancaster
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
      #337292 - 01/02/20 08:33 PM

please show it, extrem interesting!!!!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Wayne59
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
      #337318 - 02/02/20 11:37 AM

Its a cape gun and I think It may be posted on here somewhere. If not I will see if I can find a loaded round and post a pic of it.

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lancaster
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
      #337330 - 02/02/20 11:20 PM

don't believe you did, otherwise I had seen this before

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Daryl_S
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
      #337352 - 03/02/20 04:55 AM

Brass would be post 1870, wouldn't it?

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Wayne59
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #337366 - 03/02/20 11:30 AM

Lancaster. Do you want pic,s of the brass or the rifle. I looked for some of the cases today and wasn't able to lay my hands on them. Will have to look again when I have more time.

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Daryl_S
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #337369 - 03/02/20 12:54 PM

Quote:

Brass would be post 1870, wouldn't it?




What I meant by that, is the brass wasn't in use prior to 1870, seems to me. Other materials were, however, from copper, drawn, folded/wrapped with iron bases, to paper with iron bases, prior to the use of brass.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
      #337809 - 11/02/20 06:29 AM

Quote:

Lancaster. Do you want pic,s of the brass or the rifle. I looked for some of the cases today and wasn't able to lay my hands on them. Will have to look again when I have more time.




sorry, dont see this before

I want all!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Wayne59
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
      #337821 - 11/02/20 11:04 AM

Here you go. [img]https://i.postimg.cc/[url=https://postimg.cc/p9qqtbv8]Jt4CJMtw/DSC-0029.jpg[/img][/url]

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lancaster
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
      #337876 - 13/02/20 06:21 AM

this is a typical german double rifle from around 1865.
I would expect to find a chamber for a 40 mm long 28 ga or 24 ga case there. did you ever make a chamber cast and slug the barrel?

apart from that a nice dr that will allways find a place in my gun ...

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Wayne59
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
      #337883 - 13/02/20 10:22 AM

Yes. I made the rifle case from the chamber cast and the bore is .580.

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lancaster
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
      #337907 - 14/02/20 06:40 AM

original it must be a 28 ga paper shell, which case do you use as basic when making ammo?
it looks like a drawn brass case you rework there.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Wayne59
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
      #337909 - 14/02/20 08:57 AM

Made the case from Mag Tech 24ga brass.

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lancaster
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
      #337967 - 15/02/20 05:20 PM

so its a real 24 ga pinfire double rifle











dont have the measurments at hand now but the case must be a little bit oversized for the bullet?
original paper shells have a smaller inside diameter. the 577 snider die would be good to reduce case mouth outside.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Wayne59
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: lancaster]
      #337985 - 16/02/20 08:43 AM

This is a cape gun. 58 cal rifle and 20ga shotgun barrel. I used 577 snider dies to help make the case. It dose not require resizing each time you shoot it. Going to try paper patching it the next time I play with it.

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Daryl_S
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Re: The earliest black powder calibers in metal case ? [Re: Wayne59]
      #337986 - 16/02/20 10:44 AM

So Cool & very nice condition, too!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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