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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
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Investment cast BRNOs
      #337273 - 01/02/20 11:09 AM

After reading a post by Homer on another website ,about investment cast BRNOs ,I never really thought or knew they were ,being the ZKK 600 series and post 1965 ? Mod 2s etc ,not that there's anything inherently wrong with investment cast ,and whether some ZG47s appear ? to be investment cast ? or just not as well finished, but appear to be investment cast actions ? any thoughts ?

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
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Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: 500Boswell]
      #337274 - 01/02/20 11:50 AM

Brnos are sloppy overrated things anyway IME and IMO..

--------------------
.


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TexasJohn
.300 member


Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 167
Loc: Texas
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Ash]
      #337279 - 01/02/20 01:11 PM

Ouch! Pretty harsh evaluation on some of the best light sporters ever made. The .22s are a delight to shoot, accurate, dependable and almost indestructible. The Model 21/22 rifles display remarkable craftsmanship and sit in my vault proudly next to Oberndorf sporters with their heads held high. The ZKK and ZG series do not exhibit the same level of workmanship but in my experience are great rifles in their own right. Do you base your opinion on experience with any particular model?

Sign me "Brno Lover in Texas"

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."


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crshelton
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Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
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Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: TexasJohn]
      #337282 - 01/02/20 02:47 PM

TexasJohn said "In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."

I agree. One summer with a Rod and tubing gang in the Texas Panhandle convinced me to complete college.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5063
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Ash]
      #337294 - 01/02/20 08:36 PM

Have not heard of a Brno that does not shoot. Wouldn't say no to BRNO's to replace my CZ550's

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Rule303]
      #337316 - 02/02/20 08:56 AM

Quote:

Have not heard of a Brno that does not shoot. Wouldn't say no to BRNO's to replace my CZ550's



If you made the CZ 550 (conventional fitted type trigger) with the old BRNO peep & changed the shroud to the ZKK600 type & then modified the bolt to strip like a Mauser you'd win me every time!
Great rifles - just too many parts including the tooling required to make them!

Edited by 93x64mm (03/02/20 05:48 PM)


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Rhodes
.275 member


Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: 93x64mm]
      #337325 - 02/02/20 08:17 PM

Frank De Haas in his excellent book "Bolt Action Rifles" expanded 3rd edition on page 175 states the following when discussing the Brno ZKK action:-

" The action is of all steel construction. The one piece receiver is a forging, very nicely machined on every surface. The 602 is probably the only forged magnum-length Mauser action made anywhere in the world today (at the time of writing), something that ought to make custom rifle builders sit up and take notice."



Later on page 179 when discussing the Metal Finish on the ZKK receiver he states:-

"The Brno ZKK receiver has an unusual finish. It seems to have been heavily sand blasted. The surface has a matte finish that is greyish in color, contrasting with the well-polished blued barrel and the bright bolt and extractor: the effect is quite pleasing."


So yes, I was a little confused at Homers comments about investment casting.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Rhodes]
      #337354 - 03/02/20 05:00 AM

I recall my "602" as having what looked like an as-cast finish. If what Frank D. says is true about the bead blasting, then that is the reason why it looked that way, and was not cast, but a forging.
Very accurate rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: DarylS]
      #337358 - 03/02/20 06:57 AM

there is a reason quality was going down since the ZG 47 - it the same they dont make Mannlicher Schönauer anymore

be willing to pay more and you get more

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: lancaster]
      #337443 - 05/02/20 08:30 AM

G'Day Fella's

500Boswell, that same post on these Brno's, has been posted on here as well (see below).

I always go back to the the standard thought on any firearm, "How many have failed, or blown up"?
There are a number of firearm actions, that I have heard of, or seen, that have failed.
The SMLE and Mauser 1896, being two models, that come to mind.

I have never heard of any Brno made sporting rifle action, that has failed or blown up.
Need I say any more?
As to the quality of their manufacture, some time after the Soviets invaded Czechslovakia (in 1968), the quality in manufacture but in particular, the quality of the final finish of Brno's, dropped to an all time low (there is a huge message in that).
My general cut off date, for quality of manufacture and finish, is 1970 but I have seen some later rifles, that still looked very good.

As to the difference between Forged, Bar Stock or Investment Cast made actions ........ all methods have their Pluses and Negative points and they all produce high quality end products but none of these methods, produce poor or bad, modern action designs, when quality control is maintained.

FYI, just in case you didn't know this, so many of Rugers firearm designs, are made by the Investment Cast process.

Hope that help

D'oh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Rule303
.450 member


Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5063
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Homer]
      #337444 - 05/02/20 09:37 AM

Quote:

G'Day Fella's

500Boswell, that same post on these Brno's, has been posted on here as well (see below).

I always go back to the the standard thought on any firearm, "How many have failed, or blown up"?
There are a number of firearm actions, that I have heard of, or seen, that have failed.
The SMLE and Mauser 1896, being two models, that come to mind.


As to the difference between Forged, Bar Stock or Investment Cast made actions ........ all methods have their Pluses and Negative points and they all produce high quality end products but none of these methods, produce poor or bad, modern action designs, when quality control is maintained.

FYI, just in case you didn't know this, so many of Rugers firearm designs, are made by the Investment Cast process.

Hope that help

D'oh!
Homer




I have also seen Win Modle 70, Mauser 98, Sako's and several other makes that copy the M98 come to grief but like Homer never a BRNO or CZ.

With the Ruger made by Investment casting just check the Action is straight. Had an M77 with a very slightly bent action and have heard of others. All this means is their Quality Control slips now and again.


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TexasJohn
.300 member


Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 167
Loc: Texas
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Rule303]
      #337449 - 05/02/20 11:28 AM

In the book "Ruger and His Guns" there is a picture of a jig that the factory uses to check how straight the Model 77 actions are after they are cast. The book says that most have some degree of warp to them and a technician "massages" the action with a hammer until it is within the given tolerances. I assume some are better at giving these massages than others............

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."


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Rhodes
.275 member


Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Homer]
      #337458 - 05/02/20 03:33 PM

Quote:

G'Day Fella's

500Boswell, that same post on these Brno's, has been posted on here as well (see below).

I always go back to the the standard thought on any firearm, "How many have failed, or blown up"?
There are a number of firearm actions, that I have heard of, or seen, that have failed.
The SMLE and Mauser 1896, being two models, that come to mind.

I have never heard of any Brno made sporting rifle action, that has failed or blown up.
Need I say any more?
As to the quality of their manufacture, some time after the Soviets invaded Czechslovakia (in 1968), the quality in manufacture but in particular, the quality of the final finish of Brno's, dropped to an all time low (there is a huge message in that).
My general cut off date, for quality of manufacture and finish, is 1970 but I have seen some later rifles, that still looked very good.

As to the difference between Forged, Bar Stock or Investment Cast made actions ........ all methods have their Pluses and Negative points and they all produce high quality end products but none of these methods, produce poor or bad, modern action designs, when quality control is maintained.

FYI, just in case you didn't know this, so many of Rugers firearm designs, are made by the Investment Cast process.

Hope that help

D'oh!
Homer




Homer

Can you please cite your sources indicating that BRNO ZKK actions (and subsequent CZ550 actions) are machined from cast as opposed to forged bar stock. So as to remove any confusion from the subject.

Thanks.


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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
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Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Homer]
      #337467 - 05/02/20 06:06 PM

Quote:

G'Day Fella's

500Boswell, that same post on these Brno's, has been posted on here as well (see below).


My general cut off date, for quality of manufacture and finish, is 1970 but I have seen some later rifles, that still looked very good.

As to the difference between Forged, Bar Stock or Investment Cast made actions ........ all methods have their Pluses and Negative points and they all produce high quality end products but none of these methods, produce poor or bad, modern action designs, when quality control is maintained.

FYI, just in case you didn't know this, so many of Rugers firearm designs, are made by the Investment Cast process.

Hope that help

D'oh!
Homer




G'Day Fella's

Sorry Rhodes, I hope what I wrote above, wasn't interpreted as suggesting Brno actions, are either machined from Forgings, Bar Stock or Investment Castings. I was just suggesting, regardless of the material and method used, the Quality Control is all important. Hence, "the space" between these paragraphs.

To the best of my knowledge, all post ZG47 Brno centrefire actions, are made from Investment Castings.

Rhodes, I hope that clears that up?

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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500Boswell
.400 member


Reged: 21/07/06
Posts: 1276
Loc: Queensland
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Homer]
      #337473 - 05/02/20 09:25 PM

I have done some searches on the net but couldn't find anything stating that the ZKK series were investment cast ,The Ruger 77s had static loads put on the actions, which caused lugs to come off in segments ,when the same loadings were applied to M98s and Springfields they sheared the lugs completely ,so its proof they are strong .Whether the BRNOs are forged as stated by De Haas and the finish is sandblasted /bead blasted to save on costs e.g polishing etc maybe .

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Rule303
.450 member


Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5063
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: TexasJohn]
      #337511 - 06/02/20 10:46 AM

Quote:

In the book "Ruger and His Guns" there is a picture of a jig that the factory uses to check how straight the Model 77 actions are after they are cast. The book says that most have some degree of warp to them and a technician "massages" the action with a hammer until it is within the given tolerances. I assume some are better at giving these massages than others............






I very much doubt that BRNO/CZ are cast as, to my knowledge, Bill Ruger was the first major firearms manufacturer to us Investment Casting for his main rifles. Others may have made some prior to Ruger but were not major players in the field. Not talking hand guns just rifles.


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Rhodes
.275 member


Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Rule303]
      #337527 - 06/02/20 06:47 PM


No problem Homer. I've read some internet rumours suggesting both. I was just seeking some clarity if you had some reliable information.

Until I can be shown otherwise, I'll be happy to believe De Haas' observations about the Brno actions.

Cheers


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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Rhodes]
      #337569 - 07/02/20 07:39 AM

G'Day Fella's,

No Probs Rhodes but ....... given the way Frank De Haas' has described these Brno rifles, I wonder if he was aware of, or familiar with the Investment Cast process (or was unaware that Brno, was utilising this manufacturing process), at the time of him writing this?

Also, when you look at the area's of these action's, that have no sign of cutting tool marks (inside the receiver bridge and tang area), the metal surface finish, resembles that of similar area's, on Ruger, Investment Cast actions!

So given all of the above details, I will stick my neck out, and stay with what I said above, regarding all post ZG47 rifle actions, were made from Investment Castings.

D'oh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
Posts: 1276
Loc: Queensland
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Homer]
      #337817 - 11/02/20 08:52 AM

In the revised Edition of Bolt action rifles by Frank de Hass he states '' The one-piece receiver is a very accurate die forging or an investment casting ,I cannot be sure which ''.
According to Gary Przibilla in Guns Australia mag ,1968 Company catalogue ''The receiver is made of high grade material ,being a sturdy ,integral forging '' ,regarding the bolt ,''it is a one piece forging''.
Gun Digest 1969 ,ZKK Series '' The forged receiver is entirely of new design ''


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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
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Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: 500Boswell]
      #337819 - 11/02/20 09:00 AM

Gary Prizibilla later states that Current BRNO ZKK rifles have receivers and bolts produced by the investment casting method [this was 1991 ]

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: 500Boswell]
      #337836 - 11/02/20 04:27 PM

FWIW, I've flattened a Ruger bolt handle and found an occlusions in it.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Homer
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Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: 9.3x57]
      #337861 - 12/02/20 10:37 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Thanks for that info 500Boswell.
Yes Gary Prizibilla know's his stuff, so I will go with his beliefs on this.

But I have to ask, how much of the 1960's factory marketing, was 100% honest, or to put it a better way, was lost in the translation?
No shortage of people, knew nothing of Investment Casting back then, and may have assumed Investment Casting, was just Cast Iron.

D'oh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Yochanan
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Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 912
Loc: Volksdiktatur Schweden
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Homer]
      #338093 - 18/02/20 08:51 AM

ZG-47's from 1956/57 are usually better machined and finished than later ones from 1961/62. I had perhaps 10 zg-47's over the years. Brno 600 series are often great untill 1968 or 1969 after that the quality begun to swing greatly. Brno model 21 and 22 can vary one rifle to the other.

I think the zg-47 receivers were machined from forgings and bolts before 1958 has better maching then later ones. Bolt shrouds are cast.

some of Brnos from end of communist era 22lr and 222 etc. were with cast actions.

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.


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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
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Loc: Queensland
Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Yochanan]
      #338157 - 19/02/20 08:46 PM

Yochanan ,im getting a 57 Model so hope its a nice one ,there is a gunshop here with several for sale but over priced, and not in nice condition
thanks for that info
cheers


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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
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Re: Investment cast BRNOs [Re: Yochanan]
      #339039 - 14/03/20 07:55 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Yochanan, thank you for sharing your personal experience and notations, with these Brno rifles.
Very Much Appreciated.

Avagreatweekendeh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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