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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
interesting pinfire picture
      #335515 - 16/12/19 05:35 AM

when looking for a new hunting bag for xausa I stumble about a exibition catalog http://docplayer.org/80606102-Vogeljagd-in-der-provinz.html - bird hunting in the province -





about the life of alexander koenig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Koenig

they had also his shotgun a 16 ga lefaucheux which he buy on tick as a young man in the 1870s. for sentimental reasons and because he was satisfied with this gun it was used by him up into the 1930s.
Koenig use this gun on expeditions into the artic and to the nile but it is nonetheless in great shape.







the tool you see here over the gun is the cartridge extractor for pinfire shotgun cartridges




allways look for such a thing but never find one for sale

and if we look at this pic with koenig ...



there it is





would be hard to find this tool on another hitorical picture again, thank you for your attention

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3975
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: lancaster]
      #335519 - 16/12/19 08:37 AM

You are a great historian Lancaster - always finding something 'new' again!

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tinker
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: 93x64mm]
      #335525 - 16/12/19 10:49 AM

Thanks Lancaster!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: tinker]
      #335531 - 16/12/19 11:38 AM

Now THAT is a great find, along with all of the pictures.
In 1860, Forsyth wrote of the Lefaucheux "principle" in breech loading guns and how it was the gun of the future.
I had one, an 1898 Model 20 Husky 16 bore, on the same basic Lefaucheux action. I think these were made into the
1920's or maybe even later.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AaronN322
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: DarylS]
      #338352 - 25/02/20 02:02 PM

Let's make it more interesting.

How do you imagine that tool would extract a pinfire cartridge??





--------------------
Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: AaronN322]
      #338365 - 25/02/20 11:08 PM

Certainly an 'VERY old self contained cartridge' for sure Aaron!
I'm assuming here that the 'ring' is for gripping wit the finger & the 'hook' is for the removal of the case by grabbing the pin on the case itself & yanking it out.....the hole perhaps to grab it if the case is wedged tightly in the chamber?

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tinker
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: AaronN322]
      #338368 - 26/02/20 01:58 AM

Quote:

Let's make it more interesting.

How do you imagine that tool would extract a pinfire cartridge??





Aaron it's good to see you posting here.
I hope that you have already taken the dive into the previous conversations here on the early cartridge types.
Lancaster is a great source for documents and images from Europe. Take a look through his posting history and you'll find a deep trove of treasure on this topic.


The use of the extractor tool is simple.
Into the small hole at the end of the tool is set the firing pin of the cartridge.
The little balls seen in the drawing (I've seen variations of shape there) are used as fulcrum, one or the other bears again the breech face of the barrel and the fired case is pried out of the chamber by the pin.
The hook could be used to reach in and grab the case by it's mouth in the event that the case head separated from the case body.

The drawings and images of them that I have seen appear to gage the ring size to the case head size. I can only imagine that the ring end could be used to re size the thin metal case head with the pin removed.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: tinker]
      #338373 - 26/02/20 04:27 AM

That makes sense, tinker.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AaronN322
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: lancaster]
      #338386 - 26/02/20 11:12 AM

Quote:






I agree that this tool is not what would be used on this particular patent shotshell. Lefaucheux describes it as a corkscrew mechanism. But I also don’t think this is the same tool as shown in the article and the picture with the guy.

I think the tool in the article and picture with the gun and guy is something more like what would be used for this shotshell, especially given the date and that they bought the gun from Lefaucheux.

--------------------
Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges

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tinker
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: AaronN322]
      #338387 - 26/02/20 11:14 AM

My comments have to do with the use of a pinfire extractor tool, not to do with the relationship between the photograph and the drawing.

I can definitely see how a corkscrew type apparatus could work to plunge into the case head of that 24bore cartridge for the purpose of extraction.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: tinker]
      #338425 - 27/02/20 06:38 AM

the tool in the pic is a very simple version, only a grip with a hole you slip over the pin to extract the case with it. the tool in the drawing is much more sophisticated.

aaron, you have an interesting website, find it with google but you can set link to your site here.
do you know the data collection made by a german collector ( I think name was M. Strecker) in the 1990s about pinfire pistol and shotgun cartridges? there was probably no cartridge he dont find for his work.

such a corkscrew tool exist also for early Dreyse needle fire shotguns in the same time period.they were shooting a paper cartridge with a base made from rolled paper that seal the barrels. the paper case burns when fired or leave the barrel through the muzzle. the base was removed with the tool by hand before you load an new round.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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AaronN322
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Loc: USA
Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: lancaster]
      #338496 - 28/02/20 01:29 PM

Have you ever seen that corkscrew? I have not. Would be neat.

And yes, I have Manfred Zwecker's pinfire headstamp guides he made for shotshells and pistol cartridges.

There are some listed there that I don't have. And there are many many that I have that he did not have listed.

Some day I'll get them all on my website There are thousands.

Here are some neat ones: https://aaronnewcomer.smugmug.com/Cartridges/Pinfire-Manufacturers/Russian/n-zRW4HX/

--------------------
Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges

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lancaster
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: AaronN322]
      #338513 - 29/02/20 06:27 AM

yes, was manfred zwecker, have it but its laying under other stuff for years now.

also thinking you are close to the beginning of the pinfire history with this cases as possible.
this was, btw, the dreyse tool to remove the rest of the paper cartridge





did you see my latest invention
part 1 http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=324441&an=0&page=1#Post324441

part 2 http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=327948&an=0&page=0#Post327948

plan was to use the 4 ga. for goose hunting in autumn 2019 but a surgery has upset my plans so waiting for next season in 2020.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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AaronN322
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Reged: 01/09/14
Posts: 13
Loc: USA
Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: lancaster]
      #338525 - 29/02/20 12:48 PM

Thanks for the pic.

And I hadn't seen your post there before. That looks like it was a really neat and fun project!

--------------------
Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: AaronN322]
      #345046 - 13/09/20 04:12 AM

here is such a tool for sale in sweden https://www.tradera.com/en/item/301784/415534693/tomhylse-utdragare-hagel-kal-16-2






--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: lancaster]
      #345060 - 13/09/20 09:29 AM

I did not know they made a tool for doing that. I fired my pinfire cape gun 20 times the other day until it got so dirty it lost its accuracy and I could still hook the pin with my finger and remove the case.

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lancaster
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: Wayne59]
      #345102 - 15/09/20 04:44 AM

I understand it this way that there were allways problems in humid weather what makes the paper shells swelling. than the cartridges going hard into the chamber and much harder out so they had the tool at hand for don't breaking the finger.

do you shoot original old pinfire cartridges?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Wayne59
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Re: interesting pinfire picture [Re: lancaster]
      #345112 - 15/09/20 11:39 AM

No Some of mine are made out of brass and some are made using plastic hulls. That may be why mine seem to come out pretty easy. The one I shot the other day was using brass shells.

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