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RLI
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400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet?
      #33505 - 21/06/05 01:38 PM

I have read reports and seen diagrams of the new H&H cartridges namely the .400H&H and .465H&H but does anyone know of any rifles in these calibres for sale?

Steve

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: RLI]
      #33508 - 21/06/05 01:47 PM

Probably from H&H.

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rgp
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: RLI]
      #33511 - 21/06/05 02:54 PM

RLI,

No to factory rifles in that chambering, but at least one guy, I think in the USA, is building or has built a rifle to the stated chamber and bore dimensions.

Richard.

Edit:

NitroX is probably correct on the H&H option since H&H developed them, but I would suspect nobody else offers the calibres. I'd almost be willing to bet the H&H rifles in those calibres will be based on outsourced Mauser actions. RGP.

Edited by rgp (21/06/05 03:00 PM)

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450_Ackley
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: rgp]
      #33525 - 21/06/05 05:17 PM

Pac-Nor has listed on their website that they currently make .411 cal barrels, and also have available a reamer for the 400 H&H, you can order a pre-chambered, threaded, profiled barrel from them and just get your local gunsmith to headspace it and final fit the barrel for you.
Bet they will get a heap of jobs when word gets around, I'm sure an M70 or similar would be an easy re-barrel.
Take a look at www.pac-nor.com

450 Ackley

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RLI
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: NitroX]
      #33530 - 21/06/05 06:11 PM

H&H made .400H&H would be nice but price ..........,I have a Winchester M70 Pre64 .375H&H I could convert it to .400H&H but a new Winchester or Dakota would be a better idea. Time will tell if the major rifle companies take it up. A set of rifles in the following would be a good collection

.300H&H
.375H&H
.400H&H
.465H&H

Left Hand of course!

Steve

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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500Nitro
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: RLI]
      #33531 - 21/06/05 06:19 PM


Holland have a 400 Bolt action for sale at the moment.

Steve - a pre 64 Action would need a bit of strengthening / cross bolting
- after all the Pre 64 stocks split on the 375H&H's.


500 Nitro

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RLI
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #33532 - 21/06/05 06:29 PM

The one I have has not split yet but you are right they need cross bolts and if I did go ahead with it I would get a new stock made up

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"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: RLI]
      #33537 - 21/06/05 08:27 PM

In reply to:

I have a Winchester M70 Pre64 .375H&H I could convert it to .400H&H but a new Winchester or Dakota would be a better idea. Time will tell if the major rifle companies take it up. A set of rifles in the following would be a good collection

.300H&H
.375H&H
.400H&H
.465H&H





A takedown Dakota in the first three of those would be very nice.



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John aka NitroX

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: NitroX]
      #33542 - 22/06/05 12:05 AM

I would like to know if the 465 H&H is truly from the 378 Wby case or is it like the Rem Ultra and 404....very similar but the Ultra case is slightly bigger on the case head.

I just can't imagine H&H having something that is based on Weatherby.

Mike

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33545 - 22/06/05 12:49 AM

In reply to:

I just can't imagine H&H having something that is based on Weatherby.




As all Weatherbys are based on the .375 H&H Magnum, maybe that is what ultimately H&H based the .465 H&H Magnum on.

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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500grains
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: NitroX]
      #33547 - 22/06/05 12:54 AM

Actually, the 378 Wby, 416 Wby and 460 Wby are not based on the 375 H&H case. The large Wby mags have a larger head size than the 375 H&H. Also, the 465 H&H uses the same head size as the large Wby mags.

Perhaps these new HH calibers are just a flash in the pan.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: 500grains]
      #33549 - 22/06/05 01:39 AM

Learned something new.



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John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Mike_McGuire
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: NitroX]
      #33551 - 22/06/05 02:09 AM

John,

The 378 case is essentially a 416 Rigby Improved and with belt added and 30/378, 338/378, 416 Wby and 460 are the 378 case necked up or down. The are a few grains larger than the 416 Rigby case.

300 Wby and 340 Wby are basically the 375 H&H Improved neck down and the 375 Wby is a 375 Improved

257, 270 and 7mm Wby are shortened 300 Wbys necked down. They are similar to 7mm Rem case but with longer necks.

240 Wby has rim and belt diamter of 30/06 head size and thus is slightly smaller in body diamter than the 30/06. But with the thinner Norma brass and less body taper the case capacity is about the same as a 6mm/06

The extinct 224 Wby is basically the 219 Zipper Improved or 225 Winchester but with a belted case.

And all the Wbys have the double radius shoulder which gives them the look that the chamber was cut with a worn out reamer

Mike

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BFaucett
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33572 - 22/06/05 11:49 AM

Regarding the Weatherby cartridges, Mike378 has got it exactly right.

-Bob F.

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atkinson6
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: BFaucett]
      #34171 - 01/07/05 02:38 PM

Well its been awhile since the birth announcement of those two, and I think they died at birth....as I suspected they would..They are for those folks that have to have something different, other than that they have absolutly nothing to offer.....

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Minkman
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: atkinson6]
      #34185 - 02/07/05 02:59 AM

Didn't H&H already make the 465H&H? Below as posted in the double rifle forum, are prices from 1987. Are these 465's model numbers or cartridge size?


Jeffery 400 3". Overall good. Original case. AU$3500

H&H 465 Royal. Cased as new. AU$10000.

H&H 465. Badminton Model, detachable locks, new case, excellent bores. AU$10000

Lancaster 470NE Overall Fine cased. AU$6000.

Thanks

Minkman

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: Minkman]
      #34186 - 02/07/05 03:39 AM

Minkman

They are the rimmed cartridges for the double rifle. A 465 H&H double cartridge is about like the 470 Nitro.

The new 465 H&H is a belted rimless case for bolt actions. It is basically the 460 Wby case but with the sort of taper and shoulder you see on a 300 H&H.

The new 400 H&H is based on the 375 H&H and has a shape very similar to the 404 Jeffery. That is, virtually no body taper but a long sloping shoulder and long neck.

If you do a search on this site I think John Ricks posted pictures of the 400 H&H.

Mike

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BFaucett
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #34190 - 02/07/05 06:35 AM





Holland's New Cartridges
http://www.african-hunter.com/new_h&h_cartridges.htm

Two new Holland & Holland big-game rifle cartridges
http://www.hollandandholland.com/shooting_field/volume11/v11p06.htm

-Bob F.

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atkinson6
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: BFaucett]
      #34285 - 04/07/05 04:42 AM

The 400 is just a 416 Rem necked down to .411 as I recall, I can't think of anything we needed less!

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mussd0
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: RLI]
      #61151 - 14/08/06 09:11 PM

Hi Steve,

I'm new to Nitroexpress.com, I too am impressed by the reports on the new H&H cartridges, So much so that I have had a 465 chamber reamer machined from the H&H data to build a rifle, I am now trying to find suppliers of Brass, dies and 465 diameter barrels.

Any Suggestions????

Daniel.

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hoppdoc
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: atkinson6]
      #61153 - 14/08/06 09:59 PM

Question--

What are the ballistics of the cartridges and what real advantages do they have over the 416 Rem and 460 Weatherby?

Appears very redundant to me!!

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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500Nitro
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: mussd0]
      #61154 - 14/08/06 10:51 PM


Call Holland & Holland or Romey or Bertram for Brass
RCBS for Dies
Woodleigh for Bullets

Reamers ? - try someone in the US or ask Holland's
who would make a barrel.

Good luck

500 Nitro

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500grains
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #61158 - 14/08/06 11:06 PM

Pac-Nor barrels will build any barrel you want if you spring for any specialized tooling that is necessary.

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61159 - 14/08/06 11:25 PM

hoppdoc

For someone wanting a H&H bolt gun the thought of having them done in either 416 Rem or 460 Wby would cause serious heartburn Kind of like a getting a Weatherby custom in Birseye maple with silver inlays and having it chambered in 9.3 X 62

Also, if the person wanted to use factory ammo, the 460 is about 300 f/s faster than the 465 H&H, which is factory loaded to 458 Lott ballistics.

Mike

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: mussd0]
      #61160 - 14/08/06 11:32 PM

Daniel

For a barrel, as per what 500 Grains said about Pac-Nor, but being Australia I would try Tobler or Sprinter Arms, who do cut rifle barrels.

Not 100% sure, but I don't think RCBS any longer do "one off" dies. If so, get CH or Redding, but Redding will cost a fair bit more.

Mike

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500Nitro
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #61161 - 14/08/06 11:47 PM


mIKE378

Someone wanting to build a bolt action rifle in
400H&H / 465H&H shouldn't worry about cost of dies !!!

I think this would be one of the hardest projects to
do in terms of custom building.

500 Nitro

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mussd0
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61203 - 15/08/06 09:57 PM

From what I have read the 465 H&H pushes a 480gn bullet out at about 2370ft/s I think, and I'm sure there are better performers on the market but I've had a sweet spot for the 375 H&H for a long time so when looking to build something more serious I couldn't go past the 465.

and what a beautiful classic looking cartridge it is too, with its long tapered sholder, just like a big 375.

Thanks for all the replies.

I also found that Krieger make a 465 barrel in 1-18 twist

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500grains
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: mussd0]
      #61221 - 16/08/06 03:45 AM

1-18 twist is way too slow and will negatively influence penetration because the bullet, while stable in air, will quicly destabilize within an animal. The old 460 wby rifles had a 1-18 twist and penetration was worse than a 458 win mag. I suggest 1-10 or 1-12 twist.

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mussd0
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: 500grains]
      #61270 - 16/08/06 08:36 PM

Really, thanks, Holland & Holland actually suggested Krieger barrels, I might talk to Sprinters first anyhow, My mate/gun smith who is helping with the project uses Sprinters allot.

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500grains
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: mussd0]
      #61274 - 17/08/06 02:33 AM

On a .470 double, a 1-18 twist would be ok as the slower velocity bullet, which is also shorter in length, stabilizes more easily. Increase velocity and there is less stability and a faster twist is appropriate.

Differences in twist are given credit for the 9.3 x 62 showing deeper penetration than the 375 H&H.

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Marrakai
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: 500grains]
      #61296 - 17/08/06 12:50 PM

500grains:
In reply to:

Increase velocity and ... a faster twist is appropriate


It has always been my understanding that rpm (speed of revolution) stabilizes the bullet. Increasing the velocity (at the same rifling twist rate) would automatically increase the rpm, hence the bullet would be more stable, and a slower twist-rate would be OK.

It follows that a slower bullet would require a faster twist-rate to achieve the same rpm, ie stabilize.

Can you clarify this?

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500grains
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: Marrakai]
      #61328 - 18/08/06 03:38 AM

An increase in velocity exacerbates bullet yaw. More bullet yaw means earlier tumbling which in turn means shallower penetration.

Going to a faster twist rate decreases bullet yaw (up to a point, but going with a super fast twist such as 1:4 can increase it again). Decreased yaw means later tumbling which allows for greater penetration.

A faster twist rate also increase pressure, but this only matters if your loads are right on the edge of what is safe in the rifle.

So why did the old 460 Wby with a 1:18 twist penetrate more shallowly than a 458 win mag with a 1:14 twist? The 460 bullet had too much yaw.

Also, it is important not to confuse twist rate with rotational velocity of the bullet. Increasing twist rate (say from 1;18 down to 1:10) provides the bullet with more stability in flesh. Increasing the rotational velocity (say using a 1:18 twist, but adding 200 fps to the muzzle velocity) increases yaw and tends to decrease stability of the bullet.

So how much yaw is too much? The amount that makes your bullet tumble in flesh before it comes to rest within the animal.

Here is an article that has some info on the topic:


http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

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mussd0
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #78289 - 09/05/07 01:17 PM

Hi Mike,

From what I can tell the .465 H&H is loosly based on the big weatherby case but not exactly, for example the belt diameter on the weatherby is .604 and the H&H is .602, the base diameter on the case is .583 for the weatherby and .580 for the H&H. Overall case length for the weatherby is 2.913 and 2.894 for the H&H.

This cartridge really impressed me both with looks and performance, but I have had several problems with my attempt to build a rifle, brass is now available (but very expencive) but dies are not available, barrels are hard to find and projectiles are limited to the woodleigh 480g.

I suppose that anyone who can afford to buy a factory H&H rifle doesn't have a problem buying H&H factory ammo aither

I have decided to modify the round slighty to run .458 diameter projectiles to make barrel and prjectile selection much better. I plan to have a custom chamber reamer and re-sizing die reamer made to suit.

Dan

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bonanza
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: 500grains]
      #78299 - 09/05/07 08:50 PM

500,

That is the first time I have ever heard that twist rate influences penetration. What a revalation!

So now we have:

Bullet construction
sectional density
Metplat
Velocity
Angler Velocity (rotation speed)

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dnovo
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: bonanza]
      #78308 - 09/05/07 10:44 PM

My reaction to the 'new' H&H cartridges is, so what? I see no need, nor any advantage, to either cartridge. They do nothing that cannot be achieved in several existing magazine rifle cartridges other than cost significantly more to buy (the rifle, that is) and feed (the ammo.) I suspect for those 'sportsmen' who must have something 'unique' with the H&H label on it, which therefore makes it 'better' for a rifle more to be admired than used.

Or, perhaps simply announced by H&H to get 'the ink' and to show that, after a period of activity begining a hundred years ago, with the development of the 500-450NE, then the 500-465NE, the first belted magnum (the 400/375, which I have in a MS-actioned H&H built 1907 take-down and load and shoot) they developed the justly-famous 375 H&H and the 'family' that grew from it, the 300 H&H, the 275 and 240, etc. Since it has been a long time since H&H was active in the field of new cartridges, these 'new' rounds may have been announced to prove that the company still had 'creative juices' flowing.

Westley Richards did the same about five or six years ago, announcing a 700/577 and a 700/500. Both are still listed a 'available for special order' but have rarely, if ever, been sighted 'in the flesh.' Impressive to read about, however. Dave

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aktoklat
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: dnovo]
      #78485 - 12/05/07 03:41 AM

I am having a 400 H&H rifle built as we speak. The rifle should be finished within the week if the gunsmith delivers (spoke with him last week). The bbl is a Pac-nor stainless match grade (8 groove w/ 1:16 Twist rate) and will finish at 22" with flutes and topped with NEGC sights (Master Piece banded front & MP adj rear sight). The action is a standard Pre-64 model 70 (1948 era). The scope of choice is a Burris EuroDiamond (1.5-6) with Posi-lock (I prefer this scope to my 1.5-5 and 1.75-6 Leupold's. The quick detach rngs/mnts will either be Talleys, Warne or the new Weavers. The dies I have are CH. The bullets I have collected are Swifts (350's & 400's) Hawks (400's) Woodleigh's (400's), Barnes (300's & 400's)and North Forks (360's). The cases I have made are easily made from 375 H&H. However the easiest is to take 458 Lotts and simply resize and load, no fire forming to blow out the case. However, if one uses 375 H&H brass with a .410 pistol bullet with 25 grains of Unique (with filler); then a fun plinking load can be had while forming cases. My intentions are to load the 400 grainers to 2400 fps and use for Brown Bears / Moose. I have two stocks for it; one is synthetic and the other is wood. Although, I am still kicking it around to decide which one to use in Alaska, probably go with the synthetic. I went with the new 400 H&H for several reasons. Easy extraction, brass components easily made, selection of rifle and handgun bullets available and most of all I never owned an H&H caliber gun I did not like. Heck, I might load up some .410 handgun bullets to around 3100 fps and go hawg hunting down in my swamp land.

Now are you do gooders and home wreckers are free to tear-up or suggest your thoughts and expertise as to my dream rifle which I think I will name,"Killer".

Edited by aktoklat (12/05/07 04:10 AM)

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AzGuy
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: aktoklat]
      #78489 - 12/05/07 04:50 AM

Quote:

My intentions are to load the 400 grainers to 2400 fps and use for Brown Bears/Moose.




aktoklat,

Welcome to the forum, it seems that you "have the disease" and should fit in with the rest of us.

"Killer" should be a lot of fun and very effective... just like the 416 Rigby That would have been way too ea$y. Have fun.

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chuck375
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: atkinson6]
      #87137 - 15/10/07 04:21 AM

Seems like the 400 H&H should generate very close to 416 Rigby performance with that nice Holland & Holland cartridge shape and less recoil. I'd like one.

Chuck

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"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: chuck375]
      #87155 - 15/10/07 10:14 AM

Greetings from New Zealand (via India)! I'm new here & have had the bug for a loooong time! Great site! I was in the US last month & visited H&H gun room in Mannhattan. They had a 400 H&H there for $40k!! They also had a Cogswell & Harrison 375 H&H for around $8k. One day may be.....(sigh)

I am waiting for my Simson & Sohon 9.3X62 to come back from the gunsmith. It has octogonal to round barrel with twin set triggers & a good bore. Storage damage left some ugly pits on the outside & ruined the stock. Getting it restores so that I can hunt with it. Got a semi fancy English walnut stock in same slab sided German design from Great American Stock Co. I also have a couple of Mannlicher Schoenauers in 6.5X54MS. I would like to correspond with others of similar interest.

Just a thought - why not just build a 450 Nitro (Rigby) - this was the first of the great big bores before the British banned 450 cal in India & the Sudan. You can get brass, dies & have a classic caliber with the performance of a 400H&H. Or a 10.75 X 68 (my dad had one but sold it when I was 12 years old!

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Always aim through the target & not just at it.

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Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #87160 - 15/10/07 12:29 PM

I just ordered a CZ 550 American Safari Magnum in 375 H&H. It's my first medium/big bore rifle (I've shot a pre-64 Winchester in 375 H&H before). I plan to shoot it a lot, hopefully it will arrive in time for elk season here in Colorado. I opted for the glass bedding, dual crossbolts, action job and recoil reducer. The thought of having a Shilen barrel in 400 H&H installed after a few years once the rifle and I become close friends is very tempting. I'd like to do that before my first Africa trip.

Regards,
Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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Anonymous
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Re: 400H&H and 465H&H any rifles available yet? [Re: RLI]
      #103245 - 23/04/08 01:09 AM

H&H in London has a few out..

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