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Vette447
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Reged: 15/02/09
Posts: 72
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle
      #333548 - 18/10/19 02:49 AM

I know that this has been mentioned or asked a few times but not in awhile and I haven't seen a bunch of options or pictures. This is kind of a specialized question but I am hoping some folks that frequent this forum can share some experience:

I have a vintage (1920s) Rigby Double in 9.3x74r (originally 350 No2 and rechambered by Rigby years ago).I am planning on going to France for a driven Boar hunt in January and I would love to use this rifle for that hunt. It is currently setup with iron sights (one standing, three folding rear and Westley Richards style flip hooded front) and I am thinking that it would be more useful for this hunt with some sort of optics. This gun would be great with claw scope mounts. However, I can not bring myself to have scope mounts put on this gun as I couldn't desecrate this classic rifle as adding the mounts to the rib would likely require the rear sight be moved and obliterating the barrel address, etc. However, I am considering having a micro red dot mount made that could replace the rear sight so that the original could be drifted off and back on to preserve what originality of the gun.

For red dots; I am thinking possibly a Docter or Trijicon RMR or maybe even the new SRO. I want something that will aid in usefulness of the rifle for hunting but not detract from the slender and handy nature of the rifle.

Thus, I was wondering if any of you have done something similar with a classic Double? Can you please share your thoughts/experience and especially pictures of the setup. Thanks!


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DarylS
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: Vette447]
      #333549 - 18/10/19 02:54 AM

I wouldn't do that. Instead, practice with the sights on it.
Seems to me, the base for the sights you note, would require
"work" on the rib.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Vette447
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Reged: 15/02/09
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Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #333553 - 18/10/19 03:41 AM

I do think that just going with irons is an option and I plan to practice that way.

However, the mount I am talking about would just be a replacement for the rear sight and would fit in the factory dovetail. No modifications to the rib or rifle. To put it back as is, you would just drift out the new red dot mount out of the existing dovetail and drift the original rear sight back.


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tinker
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: Vette447]
      #333574 - 18/10/19 08:49 AM

I recently set up a modern 375 double rifle exactly as you propose here, dovetail mounted sight mount for an RMR

Worked great, no alterations to the rifle, simple restoration to original specification.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Vette447
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #333580 - 18/10/19 02:14 PM

Tinker, would please be so kind as to share some pics? I would love to see your setup.

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tinker
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: Vette447]
      #333581 - 18/10/19 03:16 PM

Not my rifle, it went through the shop.
Just imagine a Merkel 375 with the micro red dot sight in place of the rear sight. Super low and compact.
I ran the rifle after the sight installation and got the sight adjusted for the ammunition that shot to regulation. The little RMR didn't affect the rifle's regulation at all.

Something to note - you should make sure that red dot sights work for you with whatever vision you have.
I have astigmatism, and even the best red dot sights end up looking fuzzy for me.

My preference would be to have a bright fiber optic front sight with a perforated sight hood. That's much easier for me to see properly.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #333593 - 19/10/19 02:46 AM

With my astigmatism, without my glasses the red dot is a 45 degree slanted line, running high left, low right. Observed through my glasses, it is a red dot, as normal.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Nojden
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #334132 - 03/11/19 02:55 AM

I see 2 possible options; the Henneberger DVM montage (doctersight visier montage), that is mounted in the dovetail, or the MAK macnetic - a mount that is tightly "squeezed" on the rib by strong magnets. However, the latter doesn't fit on a side by side, only o/u barrels. I'ts intended for use on shotguns so the recoil on a 9,3x74R or bigger might be an issue.

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470evans
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: Nojden]
      #334366 - 11/11/19 12:45 AM

I had JJ Perodeau mount a doctor optic on my Evans 470 since I was no longer able to see the sights to shoot. I wish I had done it sooner.

He mills a slot on either side of the existing rear sight to mount the optic. It will screw on or off with the rim of the rifle’s cartridge and when it’s off you would never notice the slots if you weren’t looking for them. Since it mounts on the existing sight there are no other modifications to the rifle other than the slots and if you take the mount off the original sights are there ready to be used.

You’re in OK, and he is in Tulsa. Take your rifle, go see his work and make your decision.

I’ll bet you decide to get it done.

Below is a pic of the milled slots on my rifle.


[/QUOTE]


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Postman
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: 470evans]
      #334367 - 11/11/19 01:11 AM

I milled my 9.3x74R Merkel’s rib with a small 60 degree groove on either side of the rib, and then milled a small shallow locating slot on the top of the rib. The operation is not terribly hard, nor is it terribly intrusive. The end mill bit is a small 60 degree bit that looks like a triangular or pyramid shape with the tool shaft on the top of the pyramid.... The grooves are cut to just a couple of thou deep with the top of the groove about 1 thou below the top of the rib. You don’t need much for the base of an RMR to affix solidly to the rib. The rectangular locating hole is machined into the top of the rib near the front end of the grooves and is only about 2 thou deep and is oriented at 90 degrees to the rib.

Trijicon makes a mount for 11-12mm ribs which fits perfectly on the modern Heym top ribs - the Heym factory has made standard this machining work to accommodate the RMR.

For the Merkel, Trijicon has a mount for 14mm ribs.

On my Merkel, I (very carefully) did the machining myself using a small hobby mill. I’m NOT a trained machinist, so for a professional gunsmith, this is not difficult or horribly intrusive surgery. In any event, I won’t own a rifle that I can’t shoot, and if an RMR makes life easier for my ageing eyes, then so be it. A rifle that I can’t shoot has no value to me whatsoever so I’m not terribly fussed about cutting into a good double to make it usable. If it’s a museum piece, then it would be too valuable to shoot anyway so maybe that’s an indicator of what mods to make or not. The OP had made mention that his rifle was rechambered at some point so to my mind, that would kill museum piece value anyway so have at it and make it useable!!

Edited by Postman (11/11/19 01:14 AM)


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Vette447
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Reged: 15/02/09
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: 470evans]
      #334394 - 12/11/19 12:45 AM

Thank you for the pictures and description. I was planning on using JJ and he actually has my rifle now for this work. I think he is going to make a new rear sight that includes a mount which can be drifted in place of the original sight dovetail (and consequently returned to factory using the reverse process with no permanent mods). I have a larger rear sight dovetail so I think that is why that is an option. I will take pictures of the finished product once I have it back to show everyone. Thanks!

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tinker
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: Vette447]
      #334396 - 12/11/19 01:28 AM

Nice

Good success to you with the new arrangement.
I look forward to seeing the new sights.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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aromakr
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Reged: 20/04/11
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #334741 - 23/11/19 03:25 AM

My rifle was already drilled for scope bases of some type, using those holes I made a base that was milled to sit over the rib. This base was made to accommodate a Burris reflex sight. It works like a dream. Would attach a photo, however I house all my photos on my computer.

If you have a fairly long dovetail for the express sights, what I would do is make a blank that would fit the dovetail, drill and tap that blank then make a base that will fit the red dot or reflex sight that attaches to the dovetail insert. My choice for a site would be a very low sitting reflex similar to the Burris maybe a Vortex.

Bob

Edited by aromakr (23/11/19 03:32 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: aromakr]
      #334758 - 23/11/19 01:42 PM

Haven't read back to see if I have already mentioned it!

But does anyone use a triangular "dot" sight, rather than the usual circle?

They are fairly rare I believe. Bwanabob on NE, used to work for Trijicon in Australia, and told me, the triangular dot may not be as subject to the blur of astigmatism as a circle lit dot?

I believe if one really digs for it, Trijicon may offer this option on some models???

A triangle is actually more accurate than a circle. The point of the triangle being a far more accurate aiming point. While the whole triangle gives a big and fast general aiming point.

Assuming for a person like me nowadays, it deoesn't turn into a twinkling star ....

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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dracb
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #334763 - 23/11/19 08:38 PM

Leupgold has one. Looks a lot like the Trijicon, but the Leupold has the advantage that you do not have to take the sight off the rifle to change batteries.

--------------------
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."


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tinker
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: dracb]
      #334764 - 23/11/19 10:02 PM

John I have owned a Trijicon reflex sight which featured a triangular aiming point. I do recall it being much more crisp than any dot I've used. I think that there might be more to it than just the shape, there might be something about how the viewing plane was rendered in that particular sight.

I'll look into this, as I like most everything about this kind of sight except for the light bloom and blur of the dot.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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HeymSR20
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #334804 - 25/11/19 12:09 AM

Boar are quite big and on most driven hunts a 30 yard shot is a long shot. Most of the time sights are an irrelavance. Its much akin to shooting with a shotgun. Gun fit is a prerequisite and it should point where you look - if you look at the sights you will miss.

If you can practice on a moving target - rabbit clays are good. Failing that practice snap shooting a piecplat sized paper targets. Look at it and shoot.

Red dots take time to become familiar with. I personally don’t like them - would much rather use the rib and open sights and the sights are there to ensure good gun mount.

If I usecan optic then a proper 1-4x20 driven game scope is so much better IMHO, but not really an option on an old Rigby. You will be fine with what you already have. Besides in France many will just be using shotguns with slugs.


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Vette447
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: HeymSR20]
      #334903 - 27/11/19 01:31 PM

Update:

I just my Rigby back from JJ today and I am very happy. He built a red dot mount using the thumbscrew that is torqued down using a cartridge case as 470Evans showed above. However, to keep from cutting into my rifle, he built a new rear sight piece which provides the mounting surface for the red dot mount. It contains a rear sight that can be used as normal if the red dot is removed. Also, the rifle can be put back to 100% factory by simply drifting off this rear sight piece and replacing it with the factory one standing and three folding leaf rear sight. Quite ingenious really. Please see pics:










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tinker
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: Vette447]
      #334905 - 27/11/19 02:18 PM

Slick

Enjoy the new view!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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93x64mm
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #334906 - 27/11/19 05:19 PM

Fantastic work, very well thought out!
At least you can now use your Rigby rather than see it gather dust - so to speak!
But most of all it can be simply return to original condition in no time flat.
I certainly hope you get a few boars in France, will be a great achievement if you can get there.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #334911 - 27/11/19 06:55 PM

Vete447

Great work and solution. Other than a pure collector, I doubt any future buyer who intends to use such a rifle would have any problem with such an unintrusive modification. I would regard it as a plus, especially on a rifle already rechambered from .350 to 9.3x74R.

Good luck on your French boar hunt. I envy you going there and hunting. Do you speak some French? Please post a report and some photos when you return.

Also can I use your images on the NE facebook page? I plan to then share them to the Rigby "fan" page. I was made an admin so should post stuff when I can.

I think I will also use your images on a new "how to"thread. On modifying a vintage rifle with only open sights for dot or other similar sights. I wonder if rifles such as mine with express sights and multiple leaves could also be so modified? No plans as such at the moment. But I would have the express rear sight removed and kept on hand for originality and a new one modified as yours is, if it means if one day I could not use it as is, if I could keep using it.

I think I would use a non Trijicon sight though. A battery opening requiring it to be removed is a pain in the arse. Maybe Docter or Leupold or ?


PS I think that time is unfortunately getting closer.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (27/11/19 07:08 PM)


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Postman
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #334919 - 27/11/19 10:49 PM

That is a really creative installation! I see the front of the RMR kisses the sight blade, thus eliminating the need to use the Trijicon locating pin at the bottom front of the RMR.

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Vette447
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: Postman]
      #334921 - 28/11/19 01:14 AM

Thank you guys.

NitroX, you may use my pictures as you wish if they are helpful.


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HeymSR20
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: Vette447]
      #334982 - 29/11/19 09:26 AM

A very neat solution! Enjoy hunting in France.

On a different subject - how easy is it for you Americans to take a rifle to France and could you then easily through Belgium to Germany. For us in the UK it has been very with European Firearm Pass, but given BREXIT we are going to be in the same position as hunters from the USA or else where in terms of licencing etc.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Micro Red Dot Options / Setups for Classic Double Rifle [Re: HeymSR20]
      #335013 - 29/11/19 10:03 PM

Quote:

A very neat solution! Enjoy hunting in France.

On a different subject - how easy is it for you Americans to take a rifle to France and could you then easily through Belgium to Germany. For us in the UK it has been very with European Firearm Pass, but given BREXIT we are going to be in the same position as hunters from the USA or else where in terms of licencing etc.




I think a recent thread by Louis had a lot of answers, after a question by me. Will look for it, so the answers are not lost in the rest of the thread.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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