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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: NitroX]
      #333144 - 08/10/19 02:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

To anyone reading this thread. To summarise: shoot Woodleighs and all will be well




But use the extra 'stiff' FMJs sparingly ... use any FMJs sparingly, not a target bullet. And some FMJs were thickened and as is recommended, use sparingly.




Been years ago now, but IIRC for this or another thread, I did an experiment to compare effort needed to draw/resize:

1) mono bullets
2) copper/gilding-jacketed lead-core bullets
3) Hornady steel-jacketed lead-core FMJ's

All in .375 cal using a variety of dies I've used to reduce to .366-.369 caliber. The gilding jacketed lead-core jobs are rather easily re-sized, as Daryl and I have been doing for many years now {re-sizing .375 lead-core bullets for use in 9.3 rifles}. The monos are almost all impossible to reduce and the steel-jacketed lead-core FMJ's were an absolute no-go, presenting an absolute stop to attempts to resize them using the same equipment used to draw the lead-core jobs.

In my mind, if the monos actually are capable of damaging a rifle bore, the FMJ's would absolutely wreck it in a few shots, depending on all the standard variables, of course {bore/groove diameter vis a vis bullet diameter, etc.} I have no experience {I don't think, it's been years...} with "extra stiff" Woodleigh steel jacketed bullets, but if they are anything like the Horny's I tried, would be no-go's with my equipment as well, and maybe even worse.

To me this entire issue involving OSR remains a mystery.

PS: There was one one mono bullet I could resize that had multiple, very narrow driving bands. Took effort, but could be done. Can't remember which it was. Been so long.....

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333147 - 08/10/19 02:47 AM

There was reportedly an H&H double rifle ffffed in Melbourne this year (or last) using the wrong sort of projectiles ... I wasn't there to see it, but was told about it. I think it was quite a new one, and therefore very expensive.

Some of the Melbourne members on here would know all the details, if they are willing to share the info.

Since this thread (?) maybe since its beginning, I have spoken to the gunmakers at Verney-Carron and Heym, and they didn't warn against using mono metal projectiles. SO presumably their modern firearms are OK with them.

BUT personally I would ONLY use monos with raised driving bands such as the hydros, not examples with 'driving' grooves instead. Just MO. Not going to use either most probably and stick to what I already use.

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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: NitroX]
      #333162 - 08/10/19 04:29 AM

Quote:

There was reportedly an H&H double rifle ffffed in Melbourne this year (or last) using the wrong sort of projectiles ... I wasn't there to see it, but was told about it. I think it was quite a new one, and therefore very expensive.

Some of the Melbourne members on here would know all the details, if they are willing to share the info.

Since this thread (?) maybe since its beginning, I have spoken to the gunmakers at Verney-Carron and Heym, and they didn't warn against using mono metal projectiles. SO presumably their modern firearms are OK with them.

BUT personally I would ONLY use monos with raised driving bands such as the hydros, not examples with 'driving' grooves instead. Just MO. Not going to use either most probably and stick to what I already use.




Seems like safe approach.

I've always found it very interesting that these gunmakers do not warn against monos. Or hard steel jacketed bullets?

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Daryl_S
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333164 - 08/10/19 04:33 AM

Thought someone a while back posted a warming by Woodleigh to not use their guilding metal coated steel jacketed FMJ's in side by sides.
Friend if mine is using TSX's in his Merkle's 7x65R barrel as a hunting bullet. Mind you, he doesn't shoot it a lot, but has been using them since their inception. They are very accurate for him - 160gr., I think and not a light load.

--------------------
Daryl


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Daryl_S]
      #333170 - 08/10/19 05:20 AM

Quote:

Thought someone a while back posted a warming by Woodleigh to not use their guilding metal coated steel jacketed FMJ's in side by sides.




Based on my attempts to break a Rock Chucker getting steel-coated Horny's to pass thru a mere 3-4 thousandths of smaller hole, this seems like a good idea.

My questions about it have always including a wondering about the ACTUAL dimensions of the barrel, both groove and land vis a vis the bullet. I mean, from what I've read, the internal bore/groove diameters can be all over the map on old British guns, so I suppose one could run into a combination of bullet diameter, hardness and barrel specs that would result in trouble, whereas other guns being shot with the exact same bullet may exhibit no damage at all, tho I still don't see how a mono bullet could create an evenly distributed expansion of the barrel to produce the tell-tale shadow lines for all the reasons we discussed in the past.

Another thing I've often wondered about is the actual reduction in barrel wall thickness that might occur on a gun that has seen numerous rebluings, with barrel striking before bluing reducing the wall thickness over time to a dimension susceptible to stretching. Is THAT the cause of the elusive OSR?

It seems like all these theories were fronted with no proof ever being found of what combination of dimensions, jacket/type of bullet or modification of barrel ever being found that DEFINITIVELY proved the cause {-es} of "OSR".

Thus the generic "Don't use monos" approach, which when one is dealing with guns of the values represented with many of the old Brit doubles, certainly is understandable.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333180 - 08/10/19 11:31 AM

All I can say is that I have seen it, and it was caused by Barnes X bullets. It wasn't there before firing the X bullets, and it didn't take but a few.

This is not hearsay.

Curl

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: CptCurl]
      #333192 - 08/10/19 04:37 PM

Now I remember ....

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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: CptCurl]
      #333201 - 08/10/19 11:14 PM

Quote:

All I can say is that I have seen it, and it was caused by Barnes X bullets. It wasn't there before firing the X bullets, and it didn't take but a few.

This is not hearsay.

Curl




I seem to remember you posting that back in the day!

Do you know/remember if the rifle in question had been re-blued? Older gun/newer gun?

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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333209 - 09/10/19 03:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

All I can say is that I have seen it, and it was caused by Barnes X bullets. It wasn't there before firing the X bullets, and it didn't take but a few.

This is not hearsay.

Curl




I seem to remember you posting that back in the day!

Do you know/remember if the rifle in question had been re-blued? Older gun/newer gun?




I too have PERSONALLY experienced OSR on my rifle..., A brand spanking new Weatherby MK V in .378. The culprit? Barnes X. The Hornady Interlocks shot fine and I got it sighted in with them. Back home for a cleaning. Barrel wiped and polished with a soft oily cloth, nice and shiny beautiful deep blueing removing the unsightly finger prints from the surface.

Then to the range with a fist full of 300 grain Barnes X..... back home for another cleaning and voila! Lovely spirals matching the rifling clearly visible in the blueing on the entire outside length of the barrel starting from just ahead of the chamber. I wish they had come up with the stress relief grooved bore rider design BEFORE I pooched a beautiful rifle with this original Barnes X. I would still own that rifle had it not been destroyed like that.

Believe it or not.

OSR DOES exist as a very real phenomena. I just recently raised an eyebrow in another recent post when I found a Woodleigh Hydro that had both riveted and bent after having hit a hippo broadside shoulder shot, the bullet taking a sharp right hand turn and somehow ending up in the neck. The hippo expired (obviously since I was able to recover the bullet!), but I think that with both stress relief grooves and the somewhat softer alloy of the Hydro, I am confident in shooting them in modern doubles without complete fear of OSR, although to be honest, I sure do spend a great deal of time looking for OSR to see if Iíve managed to damage a fine double..... so far, so good. Whether a riveted bent Hydro causes me calamity via angry big biting stomping animal violence is the opposite side of the hard/soft equation, but I believe this was an anomaly under extenuating circumstance and I tend to think the Woodleigh people have struck a reasonable balance with their alloy and grooved design.


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333213 - 09/10/19 03:38 AM

Quote:


I too have PERSONALLY experienced OSR on my rifle..., A brand spanking new Weatherby MK V in .378. The culprit? Barnes X. The Hornady Interlocks shot fine and I got it sighted in with them. Back home for a cleaning. Barrel wiped and polished with a soft oily cloth, nice and shiny beautiful deep blueing removing the unsightly finger prints from the surface.

Then to the range with a fist full of 300 grain Barnes X..... back home for another cleaning and voila! Lovely spirals matching the rifling clearly visible in the blueing on the entire outside length of the barrel starting from just ahead of the chamber. I wish they had come up with the stress relief grooved bore rider design BEFORE I pooched a beautiful rifle with this original Barnes X. I would still own that rifle had it not been destroyed like that.

Believe it or not.




Did you take any measurements of the barrel exterior to see if there was any variation between what would be the grooves and pressed-out lands and or internal slugging to determine if any interior change occurred?

Seems like these questions have been asked before w/ non-committal responses. I just can't remember. If there aren't any dimensional differences, might one conjure variable heat stress showing in color of steel? But how many would have to have been shot in what time to generate something of that sort? Who knows.

But certainly the latter, as I've mentioned in the past, gives cause for pause thinking of all the billions of French solid brass 8mm Lebel bullets sent down range in everything from bolt guns to Hotchkiss machine guns as well as some of the early steel-core HARD AP military rounds that might have been shoved thru low-end tolerance mil barrels.

The mystery goes on!!

And on!!

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Daryl_S
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333215 - 09/10/19 04:44 AM

Yes - lots of questions. .5's with steel cores, .223 with tungsten cores - same deal. Is ball 7.63x39 ball lead or steel core?

--------------------
Daryl


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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333216 - 09/10/19 04:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I too have PERSONALLY experienced OSR on my rifle..., A brand spanking new Weatherby MK V in .378. The culprit? Barnes X. The Hornady Interlocks shot fine and I got it sighted in with them. Back home for a cleaning. Barrel wiped and polished with a soft oily cloth, nice and shiny beautiful deep blueing removing the unsightly finger prints from the surface.

Then to the range with a fist full of 300 grain Barnes X..... back home for another cleaning and voila! Lovely spirals matching the rifling clearly visible in the blueing on the entire outside length of the barrel starting from just ahead of the chamber. I wish they had come up with the stress relief grooved bore rider design BEFORE I pooched a beautiful rifle with this original Barnes X. I would still own that rifle had it not been destroyed like that.

Believe it or not.




Did you take any measurements of the barrel exterior to see if there was any variation between what would be the grooves and pressed-out lands and or internal slugging to determine if any interior change occurred?

Seems like these questions have been asked before w/ non-committal responses. I just can't remember. If there aren't any dimensional differences, might one conjure variable heat stress showing in color of steel? But how many would have to have been shot in what time to generate something of that sort? Who knows.

But certainly the latter, as I've mentioned in the past, gives cause for pause thinking of all the billions of French solid brass 8mm Lebel bullets sent down range in everything from bolt guns to Hotchkiss machine guns as well as some of the early steel-core HARD AP military rounds that might have been shoved thru low-end tolerance mil barrels.

The mystery goes on!!

And on!!





And on and on and on. As memory serves, I shot maybe 20 rounds of the Barnes..... Not very many at all. It was around 18 years ago, I was much younger and far less affluent to the point that buying a Ďbee MK V was the outer edge of financial extravagance, one which I could not afford at the time and certainly not one I could afford to ruin the second trip to the range with it. Nope, I did not take measurements but I did stare at it a hundred ways to Sunday and it didnít appear in the least as a simple discolouration. To these eye it looked raised and certainly NOT a normal barrel. At the time it did not occur to me to measure it, in no way anticipating having this ďhe said, she saidĒ debate on an Internet forum. Down the highway it went as fast as I could churn it. .

Looking back, some of my rifles now are far more expensive, but I will avoid like the plague trying to recreate that experiment in any event. Maybe some members here with a scientific bent can find a good donor rifle and a few boxes of the old original non-stress grooved Barnes X, and go to the range with a micrometer?



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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Daryl_S]
      #333217 - 09/10/19 05:14 AM

Quote:

Yes - lots of questions. .5's with steel cores, .223 with tungsten cores - same deal. Is ball 7.63x39 ball lead or steel core?




Ball 7.62x39 varies, some mild steel core, some lead.

Generally, there is a lead sheath of varying thickness between the core and jacket, allowing impression of the lands into the bullet. However, some hard-core bullets are said to be VERY hard indeed and of course these bullets are known to increase wear on barrels as well.

Even so, one wonders how hard {really, difficult to engrave} such bullets would be compared to the Barnes or other monos.

What's a bummer is that it seems that every time we find an OSR'd barrel, measurements or other observation for those of us who have never seen it is, for some reason, not possible. IIRC, Mark Cash did post a pic of one back in antiquity, but I don't recall the details, nor do I remember if there were any dimensional changes noted.

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3DogMike
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333220 - 09/10/19 05:26 AM

Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" , 3rd Edition, Chapter 13 has a decent discussion about barrel damage due to various suspected causes.
Would I shoot modern "solids" in my vintage doubles? No.....
- Mike

--------------------
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Edited by 3DogMike (09/10/19 05:27 AM)


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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333236 - 09/10/19 10:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Yes - lots of questions. .5's with steel cores, .223 with tungsten cores - same deal. Is ball 7.63x39 ball lead or steel core?





What's a bummer is that it seems that every time we find an OSR'd barrel, measurements or other observation for those of us who have never seen it is, for some reason, not possible. IIRC, Mark Cash did post a pic of one back in antiquity, but I don't recall the details, nor do I remember if there were any dimensional changes noted.




I wish I could show you that Weatherby barrel, particularly because it was so blatantly obvious to the naked eye. I tried a bit of surfing and there isnít any pics on the net that Iíve managed to uncover. I suppose that this type of barrel ruination must not be terribly common and I sure wish it hadnít happened to me because I had a really powerful attachment to that Weatherby with the idle dreams of the young to one day somehow hunt Africa with it. Donít know what else to tell you.... It happened to MY rifle and I dumped it with a broken heart. People can shoot whatever they want through their guns and disbelieve that OSR even exists, but Iíve learned my lesson.

So as curiosity killed the cat, I couldnít sit still and went to dig out the remaining Barnes X bullets that I knew Iíve been sitting on since dumping the Weatherby. They measure out at 0.3741 or 0.3742..... Hard to tell with the .001 increment Starrett dial micrometer, but it is definitely at least 0.0001 bigger than 0.3740. The box is labelled as follows:

50 BULLETS
37585
375cal. 375dia.
270GR ďXĒ
CANNELURED
938/1 9/1/98

It appears that at some point I consolidated the partially finished 1st box as there are 71 bullets in this box, ergo it is probable I fired 29 of them in that Weatherby .378.

And thatís all Iíve got in forensic material other than my memory and my Internet say so concerning what I experienced wrt to OSR.

Edited by Postman (09/10/19 11:34 AM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333238 - 09/10/19 11:05 AM


I've shot 50 rounds of TSX bullets through my .375 at mostly 2,650fps to highest speed 2,740fps for just a few. 'Course, these were grooved. No damage I guess as rifle is curently shooting into just under 2" at 200 meters with Norma RN's, at 2,410fps, using 56gr. Re#15.

The barrel is a mite heavier than light sporter weight - about a #3 Shilen (magnum) taper.

This really doesn't mean anything, just that the Barnes TSX's went into small cloverleafs mostly. I shouldn't have wasted them shooting tiny groups. Oh well - got a bunch of 300's and 310gr. cast to shoot.
Full case of Trail Boss runs 1,385fps with the 310gr. cast FN's. Good deer load, I guess.

--------------------
Daryl


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Ash
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 3DogMike]
      #333264 - 09/10/19 11:52 PM

Woodleighs, all ya need, ever, for anything.

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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Ash]
      #333269 - 10/10/19 04:24 AM

Quote:

Woodleighs, all ya need, ever, for anything.




Yes, Iím becoming a Woodleigh believer.... But I still like the TTSX & Banded Solids, Partitions, and A-Frames. Iíve not shot the Swift copycat Breakaways.


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Rule303
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333273 - 10/10/19 07:55 AM

Woodleigh make their Solids a few thou undersized so as to help avoid barrel stress problems.

Until now I had not heard of a Hydro bending or going off course. I have seen them start to rivet but not badly. Might have been a faulty batch????


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Rule303]
      #333274 - 10/10/19 07:59 AM

Quote:

Woodleigh make their Solids a few thou undersized so as to help avoid barrel stress problems.

Until now I had not heard of a Hydro bending or going off course. I have seen them start to rivet but not badly. Might have been a faulty batch????




Help me out here.

I have little experience with Woodleighs, just some softs I tested years back and also the Hydros, but as for the solids, none.

What is Woodleigh jacket material made of? Seems there are two types or something, a regular and a extra-hard jacket?

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tinker
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333282 - 10/10/19 12:23 PM

Quote:


What is Woodleigh jacket material made of? Seems there are two types or something, a regular and a extra-hard jacket?




Years ago the Woodleigh 458 350gr SNRN had been suggested to me as a good candidate for the black powder express. I got a box, tried them, and I was immediately struck with how hard they were. I sectioned one and compared the jacket and core hardness to the Hornady of similar weight and design. The W bullet was much harder than the H bullet.

Following up I later learned that there was a 350 SNRN designed for BPE loads and there was a 350 SNRN designed for the 458 Winchester loads. I never ended up sourcing any of the softer W bullets for comparison, as the H bullet is cheap and easy to get here in North America.

There might be other examples of the W softs where "some are softer than others"...

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3DogMike
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: tinker]
      #333284 - 10/10/19 01:44 PM

The whole OSR thing seems to me to be roughly similar (I said "similar" not exactly the same) to the early on problems encountered with steel shot in vintage shotgun chokes and visibly ringing the choke forcing cone onto the exterior of the barrels.
More modern steel and harder steel choke tubes have eliminated this problem.
The older shotguns, just like "vintage" double rifles have to be careful not to use "harder, less malleable" projectiles.
That's my opinion and 2 cents.....

- Mike

--------------------
ďOn the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: tinker]
      #333285 - 10/10/19 01:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:


What is Woodleigh jacket material made of? Seems there are two types or something, a regular and a extra-hard jacket?




Years ago the Woodleigh 458 350gr SNRN had been suggested to me as a good candidate for the black powder express. I got a box, tried them, and I was immediately struck with how hard they were. I sectioned one and compared the jacket and core hardness to the Hornady of similar weight and design. The W bullet was much harder than the H bullet.

Following up I later learned that there was a 350 SNRN designed for BPE loads and there was a 350 SNRN designed for the 458 Winchester loads. I never ended up sourcing any of the softer W bullets for comparison, as the H bullet is cheap and easy to get here in North America.

There might be other examples of the W softs where "some are softer than others"...




That's pretty interesting.

So there is something to it.

"Use Woodleighs" might be the wrong advice. Maybe "Use the right Woodleighs" is better.

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Rule303
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333293 - 10/10/19 07:56 PM

Woodleigh Solids have a copper jacket over a Steel jacket containing a lead core from memory.

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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Rule303]
      #333295 - 11/10/19 12:47 AM

Quote:

Woodleigh make their Solids a few thou undersized so as to help avoid barrel stress problems.

Until now I had not heard of a Hydro bending or going off course. I have seen them start to rivet but not badly. Might have been a faulty batch????




I must preface this post with a disclaimer that I have had little experience hunting Africa, and much less experience hunting the big boys..... My sampling size is thus very small, but is simply one data point in a broader discussion.


Take a look at the pics that Daryl graciously posted for me a few posts back in this thread. From the hippo, out of the 10 or so fired, only 2 Hydros were recovered and are shown in the posted photo. The rest were passthroughs. Dead is dead so I canít say the bullet ďfailedĒ. I can say that it didnít perform quite as expected. The small amount of riveting witnessed is probably not a really big deal, certainly not compared to the handful of Hornady DGS retrieved from previous hunts that the PH showed me that were twisted up, shredded, and otherwise mangled. The bending of the hydro was not terribly impressive though.

When shooting really truly heavy game, it would be really hard to make a bullet that works perfectly in game but does not inflict grievous harm to an expensive barrel set. The one Barnes Banded solid that I have recovered from an earlier hunt, having passed from brisket to deep in the soggy chewed grasses inside a buffalo, and all others witnessed by my PH as he related to me, looked perfect save for rifling marks. They are solid enough to withstand deformation, but just maybe a bit too hard for an older double? The Woodleighs are specifically designed to not harm the older doubles as I understand it, and maybe thatís what is the deciding factor when they cooked up the alloy?

When loading the traditional Woodleigh Steel jacket solids along side the Hydros, one can hear, and feel the difference between the two upon firing, with the traditional steel jacket solids making a much sharper ďcrackĒ and recoiling more, given similar loadings. At least to me this means higher pressure with the steel core solids.

Iíll opt for the Hydros for buffalo followups, although I just may select the Barnes Banded solids for elephant or hippo if ever again I am afforded opportunity to hunt these very large beasts.

The hydros give me a sense of confidence that my rifle barrel will not likely be harmed. The Banded Solids give me confidence that I wonít be harmed and situation dependent, I may not give a damn about the gun barrel.

Edited by Postman (11/10/19 01:00 AM)


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