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buckstix
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Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted
      #332789 - 28/09/19 10:31 PM

Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted

Hello all,

I acquired this Cape Gun June, 2017. It was made by Franz Thiele (Teplitz, Czech - Austria Hungary) This Thiele Cape Gun is a Rifle/Shotgun combination, being opposite to my other Cape Gun which is Shotgun/Rifle combination. The rifle barrel on this one has a set-trigger feature, and a single blade rear site that can be folded flat into the rib so as to not obstruct your view when shooting the shotgun barrel.

Specs are: 27" bbl - 6 lbs 9 oz - 13-7/8" LOP - Flip-up Rear Sight - Set Trigger (rifle)
Markings are: "F.Thiele in Teplitz" - "9515.01" (old marking) - "1648.g" "847.234.27" "Nicht Fur Kugel" (not for ball) - "16.0" "8.3"
Features are: overall engraving, case colored action, scalloped buffalo horn grip cap, buffalo horn butt plate, lever forend release, sling swivels

Although I've found a few guns made by Franz Thiele, I can't find any information about him or the time of his gun building.

I'm hoping that someone might be able to help with info about Franz Thiele.





































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Igorrock
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: buckstix]
      #332790 - 28/09/19 11:41 PM

I found this text from Internet:

"Franz Thiele übernahm vermutlich in den späten 1870er- oder frühen 1880er-Jahren die Werkstätte von Anton Czischek (geb. 1843, als Büchsenmacher in den 1860er-Jahren erwähnt). Er war Gewinner vieler Auszeichnungen und auch ein hervorragender Schütze. So gewann er die Schießwettbewerbe in Karlsbad in den Jahren 1900, 1903, 1905, 1907 und 1908. Mit Ausbruch des 1. WK wird er nicht mehr erwähnt."

"Franz Thiele probably took over the workshop of Anton Czischek in the late 1870s or early 1880s (born 1843, when gunsmith mentioned in the 1860s). He was the winner of many awards and also an excellent shooter. So he won the shooting competitions in Karlovy Vary in the years 1900, 1903, 1905, 1907 and 1908. With the outbreak of the 1st WK he is no longer mentioned."

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DarylS
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: Igorrock]
      #332791 - 29/09/19 01:00 AM

Very interesting gun, buckstix. Also interesting is the location of the notch in the rear sight. Have you shot this gun?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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m4220
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: Igorrock]
      #332793 - 29/09/19 02:31 AM

Franz Thiele mentioned in Heer Der Neue Stockel
Thiele Franz, Teplitz (Teplice). Bohmen/CS. ca 1880-1910. Ubernimmt die Werkstatt des Anton CZISCHEK. Erhalt fur seine Waffen 26 Auszeichnungen. QO; Q321

Franz Thiele mentioned in Stockel
Thiele Franz, Teplice (Teplice). Bohemia / CS. ca 1880-1910. Takes over the workshop of Anton CZISCHEK. Receiving for his weapons 26 awards. QO; Q321


m4220

Edited by m4220 (29/09/19 02:37 AM)

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93x64mm
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: m4220]
      #332797 - 29/09/19 07:34 AM

Cape guns certainly were the one gun to do it all!
Interesting calibre 8x72R (BP?)- first one I've 'seen' so to speak.
It would be perhaps a tough one to get cases for, can you make them from any other type(s)?
Beautifully engraved & kept lovingly that is for sure.
Hope we'll see more of what this old lady can do!
Very nice indeed!

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kuduae
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: 93x64mm]
      #332799 - 29/09/19 09:25 AM

Igorrock already answered your question about Franz Thiele in Teplitz (Teplice, Czechia since 1945). I have nothing to add.
The gun was first proofed by an Austrian proofhouse in 1901. In 1927 it was nitro reproofed by the Weipert = Vejprty proofhouse. Maybe it was rechambered then from the 8x58R Sauer & Sohn to Wilhelm Brenneke's 8x72R, a slightly more powerful load? While the 8x58R was loaded with 31 gr T1910 powder and a steel jacketed 196 gr bullet to 1906 fps, the 8x72R used the same bullet ahead of 39 gr R5 for a mv of 2185 fps. 8x72R cases can be formed from 9.3x72R brass, sometimes available from Sellier & Bellot or RWS.
Both Teplitz and Weipert were towns in the Sudetenland, the northern part of Bohemia, settled by Germans since the middle ages. Before WW2 Teplitz had a 75% German speaking population, the Bohemian gunmaking center Weipert even 95%. All Germans were expelled or worse from Czechoslovakia in 1945. So it is near impossible now to gather any information locally.
While Britsh cape guns usually have the rifle barrel left, German and Austrian guns most often have it on the right side. Contiental Büchsflinten = cape guns are usually fitted with a push – forward set trigger for the rifle barrel. As the left barrel trigger is usually the rear one, close to the triggerguard, it would be quite inconveient to set a left barrel trigger.

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lancaster
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: kuduae]
      #332803 - 29/09/19 02:39 PM

"While Britsh cape guns usually have the rifle barrel left, German and Austrian guns most often have it on the right side."

and they driving on the wrong side too mean the british

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buckstix
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: DarylS]
      #332804 - 29/09/19 03:41 PM

Hello Igorrock,
Thanks for the reply.
I really like the way go give both the text and the translation.
.

Hello Daryl_S
Thanks for the reply.
The rear site notch looks strange, but works perfectly, as you can see by the picture below.
.

Hello m4220,
Thanks for the reply.
I appreciate the info.
.

Hello 93x64mm,
Thanks for the reply.
Although 8x72R brass isn't readily available, I made up some reloads by resizing 9.3x72R brass which is available from several sources.
.

Hello Kuduae,
Thanks for the reply.
I appreciate the very detailed information. I was wondering about the manufacturing date.
.

Hello lancaster,
Thanks for the reply.
Kuduae's explaination about the set trigger explained the difference.
.

This viscous beast came snooping around during the range test of this gun. I used the 8x72R barrel - not the 16ga.



--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: DarylS]
      #332806 - 29/09/19 09:33 PM

Quote:

Very interesting gun, buckstix. Also interesting is the location of the notch in the rear sight. Have you shot this gun?



Interesting, but it makes sense. Why otherwise put the notch in the centre of the rear sight there making the rifle barrel shoot either parallel or crossing the line of sight. But I suppose it still does cross the line of sight as the front sight is still centred?

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lancaster
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: buckstix]
      #332807 - 29/09/19 09:35 PM

waidmannsheil
is it a nutria? so your range is beside a swamp?
just the right start for this old gun

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: buckstix]
      #332808 - 29/09/19 09:38 PM

Quote:



This viscous beast came snooping around during the range test of this gun. I used the 8x72R barrel - not the 16ga.





What is that? A beaver?

Buckstix, a nice looking continental cape gun. The ballistics for the 8x72R per the previous post, aren't too bad either. Good shorter range rifle barrel for medium game, and a shotgun for small game or a slug or buckshot. Should be fun to hunt with.


To anyone, what were these cape guns, combinations, double rifles in the x72mmR cartridges designed to be used for? Obviously originally black powder, I would suppose the 8mm, and the 9.3mm were all designed for use against medium game?

--------------------
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...
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HuviusModerator
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: NitroX]
      #332815 - 29/09/19 11:07 PM

Must be a Groundhog.
Nutria have a rat like tail and Beavers of course have the wide flat tail.

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lancaster
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: Huvius]
      #332816 - 29/09/19 11:16 PM

and I still believe its a nutria

don't believe the 8x72R Brennecke starts as a black powder round.
must be one of the first Brennecke caliber in history the biggest advantage was the low pressure suitable for the early guns made then for nitro cartridges. they were learning then slowly by broken guns that nitro rounds needing stronger actions on the long run than what they build before for black powder cartridges all the years.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: lancaster]
      #332818 - 30/09/19 01:48 AM

Yes, a woodchuck. Look at the tail. Lol They do look similar to Nutria and are of the same basic clan. Nutria have webbed feet, not so with the Eastern Woodchuck, nor it's Western cousins, various marmots. Also, every picture I see of Nutria, the teeth are VERY orange and somewhat longer than woodchuck's white or yellowish teeth.

Here's a Nutria.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: NitroX]
      #332819 - 30/09/19 01:56 AM

Quote:

What is that? A beaver?



Hello NitroX,
Thanks for the reply.

No, not a beaver, it was a woodchuck.

He had taken up residence under one of our range buildings.
He made so many tunnels under the concrete floor that the floor cracked and collapsed.


I had been trying to get him.
Then the day I was shooting the Cape Gun, he came out.


And, he was finally dispatched,


But now, his brother has retaliated and is trying to get even with me.


--------------------
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kuduae
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: buckstix]
      #332820 - 30/09/19 02:17 AM

For Lancaster: The woodchuck or groundhog, "Waldmurmeltier" in German, Marmota monax, is a close relative to our Alpine Murmeltier, Marmota marmota. Another American relative is the rockchuck, Marmota flaviventris. Both are common targets of American varmint hunters.

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kuduae
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: kuduae]
      #332821 - 30/09/19 05:34 AM

Quote:

To anyone, what were these cape guns, combinations, double rifles in the x72mmR cartridges designed to be used for? Obviously originally black powder, I would suppose the 8mm, and the 9.3mm were all designed for use against medium game?


The Büchsflinte = cape gun and the lower grade drilling were the tool of the practical hunter, the forester and the game keeper. Guns to be carried all day while doing the other chores on their Revier = area of responsibility. Just in case a chance offers itself. Remember, a fox may appear anytime, just as a roebuck or even a boar.
So it was the only, general purpose gun for most German and Austrian hunters.
While the 9.3x72R was a blackpowder number originally, the 8x72R and the much later 7x72R were smokeless loads from the start. But the 8x72R culd be reloaded with blackpowder and lead bullets, just like the contemporary .32 Winchester Special. The 8x72R was brught out by Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig, in 1898 as his first proprietary rifle cartridge. Essentially a tapered down 9.3x72R case, it was itended as an improvement over the 8x58R S&S and the 8x57R 360, but a slimmer package than the 8x57IR to allow for slimmer drillings.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: kuduae]
      #332826 - 30/09/19 03:58 PM

Thanks Kuduae for the information. I have always assumed the multi barrel firearms, shotgun and rifle combinations were popular with Central European hunters due to a variety of game that might be encountered. But perhaps not always large numbers of particular species (?). So a rabbit, hare or duck might be shot, or a roe, boar or deer. Versatility for what might be encountered.

--------------------
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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: buckstix]
      #332827 - 30/09/19 04:03 PM

Buckstix,

Can these fat looking rodent creatures be eaten?

I have a fur hat made of "Mississippi rat" fur per the Stockholm, Sweden, furrier I bought it off. He had no English and my Swedish is a few words, so the translation was not spot on.

Mississippi marmot perhaps? I have mentioned it before on the forums, but I forgotten.

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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kuduae
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: NitroX]
      #332830 - 30/09/19 07:50 PM

Quote:

I have a fur hat made of "Mississippi rat" fur per the Stockholm, Sweden, furrier I bought it off. Mississippi marmot perhaps?


More likely muskrat (Ondatra zibethicus) fur. Muskrats are found over most of Canada and the United States and a small part of northern Mexico. They were introduced to Europe in the beginning of the 20th century and have become an invasive species in northwestern Europe. They mostly inhabit wetlands, areas in or near saline and freshwater wetlands, rivers, lakes, or ponds. Muskrat fur is warm, becoming prime at the beginning of December in northern North America. In the early 20th century, the trapping of the animal for its fur became an important industry there. Muskrats were introduced at that time to Europe as a fur resource, and spread throughout northern Europe and Asia. In European countries the muskrat is considered an invasive pest, as its burrowing damages the dikes and levees on which low-lying countries depend for protection from flooding. In those countries, it is trapped, poisoned, and hunted to attempt to keep the population down.
(from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskrat )

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buckstix
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: NitroX]
      #332831 - 30/09/19 07:51 PM

Hello NitroX,
Thanks for the reply.

I don't know anyone that eats woodchuk, but I found this on google:

"...Groundhogs (woodchucks)are not only edible, they're tender and delicious if properly cleaned and prepared. They live on a completely vegetarian diet, and cary no life threatening diseases for humans. Groundhogs are similar to rabbit in taste, and most recipes for groundhog have you prepare them in the same manner..."

Your hat is probably made of Muskrat fur. Also from google.

"...The muskrat is a medium sized semi-aquatic rodent with webbed hind feet and ... The Muskrat's fur is thick, glossy and durable making it a target for fur trappers..."

"...The muskrat (Ondatra zibethicus), the only species in genus Ondatra and tribe Ondatrini, is a medium-sized semiaquatic rodent native to North America and an introduced species in parts of Europe, Asia, and South America. The muskrat is found in wetlands over a wide range of climates and habitats..."

"...Muskrat Fur Hats. Muskrat is a North American fur that is popular for its natural color and can also be dyed rich jewel shades. Its color, in general, is dark brown on the back shading to golden brown and silver on the flanks. It has a thick waterproof underfur with a glossy overlayer of longer fur..."[i/]

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lancaster
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: buckstix]
      #332847 - 01/10/19 02:44 AM

think his death sentence was spoken when the floor of the range building cracked...sometimes you overstep the mark

the muskrat is very common all over europe and asia today and notorious for making damage on dikes. once a profitable business for trapper also in europe because of the damned greens and their stupid hate against furs its today only a job for pest control.

this is the pre war DWM catalog about the 8x72R, you see they made astonishing five different loads then





the R 5 powder was the most used powder at all in this days, imho very similar to Vithavuori N 140

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: lancaster]
      #332849 - 01/10/19 03:47 AM

John- I have only eaten a few dozen, when living back East in Ontario. I have also eaten Hoary Marmots, shot on Hudson's Bay Mountain in Smithers.
That largest Ground (Woodchuck) Hog I shot back there, was 13 pounds.
The Marmots on Hudson's Bay mountain are over double that size, indeed, up to 30 pounds. The fat from around the organs, is so high in oil, the fat can be bagged and frozen (never gets REALLY hard), then when needed, thawed and rubbed into your boots for an incredible waterproofer.
After doing this, the hands must be washed with a good degreasing agent, or as i found, twice with a good dish soap, just to get the oil off your hands.
The oil also makes good patch lube for muzzleloading guns.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: DarylS]
      #332866 - 01/10/19 12:00 PM

Hello lancaster,
Thanks for the reply.

Thanks for the loading information. Do you know what American powder would be equivalent to R5?

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lancaster
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Re: Franz Thiele 8x72R x 16 ga Cape Gun- Info about maker wanted [Re: buckstix]
      #332867 - 01/10/19 02:06 PM

looking into the norma list IMR 4895 or hogdon H 335 is close to N 140 but you are old enough to know its only a rough guess

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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